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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-11-2011, 06:21 AM   #131
Andrew James
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
As for "mainstream athlete" I'm a white American male. I barely count soccer and hockey as sports.
Wow dude. Just wow. The ignorance of this statement is so astounding I don't know which part of it to correct first.

Last edited by Andrew James : 08-11-2011 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:29 AM   #132
Mark Boyle
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
So you're saying that being in all-around better shape won't make someone a better athlete on the field? They definitely don't need to hit the metrics that you listed...but working to develop increased work capacity (read: better performance from all energy systems) can't be a bad thing. Yes, if you push too far towards being a generalist, then specific endurance can suffer, but it IS possible to develop your other energy systems beyond their current limit without sacrificing the sport-specific endurance. Furthermore, we've already accepted that the energy systems all work together and that no one REALLY knows how much each one contributes during any specific sport, event/game, or play...so it seems to me that it IS POSSIBLE that people are missing out on improving their ability on the field by focusing only on sport-specific endurance.
Overly training energy systems that aren't used in your sport absolutely CAN hurt performance. Even if the effect was neutral, that means the time you spent developing that trait could have been better used elsewhere.


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Speaking of sport-specific endurance, am I correct in assuming that all of you would just train a football player by doing sets of 10 seconds on, 30-40 seconds off for 3 hours? I mean, that's "football specific" right?
No. You would likely start with longer rest periods (work length stays the same) and gradually decrease them.
You also wouldn't need to do this for 3 hours as players are off the field for well over half of that time plus endurance will be gained through practice before the season starts.

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Is everything else a waste of time since we want to mimic the demands of the sport? Would someone care to explain to me how something like WS4SB (which is think is a great program, BTW) is any more specific to football than let's say CFFB?
WS4SB has a far more extensive and detailed weight training plan. It isn't random. It doesn't do conditioning that isn't particularly relevant to football. When reasonably applied, it takes into consideration what position a player plays.

Of course, WS4SB is more of a template than a defined program, so it is possible for someone to screw it up. That isn't as true for CFFB.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:44 AM   #133
Mark Boyle
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post


I agree, this is what I've been saying all along.

- Alex
But what you've missed is that GPP is different for different sports.

A baseball player's GPP is going to be intended to provide the supporting fitness to throw harder, sprint faster and swing a bat faster. This is going to include lots of direct strength work, specific prehab work that relates to throwing, and RFD work.

A basektball player's GPP is going to be intended to prepare him for the pounding his joints will take playing and practicing on the court every day as well as improving his speed, jumping ability and conditioning. Its going to have far more "met-con" like activities and as a result, must have reductions in other training areas (throwing specific exercises obviosly won't be there but there will also be less maximal strength training).

A distance runner's GPP may simply be building a solid milege/aerobic base. Their "strength" training may be no more than doing hill work. They're certainly not going to do the same amount of lifting as a baseball player. Their legs wouldn't be able to take that in addition to the running and adding size in their upper body is going to hurt their performance.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:04 AM   #134
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
Overly training energy systems that aren't used in your sport absolutely CAN hurt performance. Even if the effect was neutral, that means the time you spent developing that trait could have been better used elsewhere.
Statements like this show how little you know about how little we actually understand about making better football players.

Joe Tereshenski - who has been training athletes for nearly 30 years and a very good athlete in his own right - spent this summer forcing one of the nations most elite football programs to focus on distance running. Is that a good idea? I don't think so but who the hell am I? And I am certainly not getting upper 6 figures a year to put a program together.

Go buy Dan John's DVD seminar on football training. Watch it. Digest it. Understand it. Then come back and admit that all this talk about the proper way to attack energy systems and sport specific movements is just BS. You make an athlete stronger and more powerful the best way you know how (note methods will vary from box squats to partial oly lifts to full oly lifts etc....). You focus on prehap and stability and then you roll the dice. As much as you want to believe it is science it's not. Its a crapshoot art.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:15 AM   #135
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
But what you've missed is that GPP is different for different sports.

A baseball player's GPP is going to be intended to provide the supporting fitness to throw harder, sprint faster and swing a bat faster. This is going to include lots of direct strength work, specific prehab work that relates to throwing, and RFD work.

A basektball player's GPP is going to be intended to prepare him for the pounding his joints will take playing and practicing on the court every day as well as improving his speed, jumping ability and conditioning. Its going to have far more "met-con" like activities and as a result, must have reductions in other training areas (throwing specific exercises obviosly won't be there but there will also be less maximal strength training).

A distance runner's GPP may simply be building a solid milege/aerobic base. Their "strength" training may be no more than doing hill work. They're certainly not going to do the same amount of lifting as a baseball player. Their legs wouldn't be able to take that in addition to the running and adding size in their upper body is going to hurt their performance.
Again, I am just confused where you get this crap. Here is a quote from an strength coach from an elite program. From the quote, tell me what sport he trains (without using google):

"[We focus on Bench, box squats, and hanging power cleans.] We test 1-3 rep maxes and do cluster work in the 78-90% ranges for 2-4 reps with sets ranging as high as 20! Itís simple, our strength work is to get strong and our assistance work is to stay healthy. I think youíve seen how this has truly worked for us, as weíve been able to impose our will over much bigger teams than us the past few years simply because we were stronger."
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:18 AM   #136
Alex Europa
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
But what you've missed is that GPP is different for different sports.

A baseball player's GPP is going to be intended to provide the supporting fitness to throw harder, sprint faster and swing a bat faster. This is going to include lots of direct strength work, specific prehab work that relates to throwing, and RFD work.

A basektball player's GPP is going to be intended to prepare him for the pounding his joints will take playing and practicing on the court every day as well as improving his speed, jumping ability and conditioning. Its going to have far more "met-con" like activities and as a result, must have reductions in other training areas (throwing specific exercises obviosly won't be there but there will also be less maximal strength training).

A distance runner's GPP may simply be building a solid milege/aerobic base. Their "strength" training may be no more than doing hill work. They're certainly not going to do the same amount of lifting as a baseball player. Their legs wouldn't be able to take that in addition to the running and adding size in their upper body is going to hurt their performance.
Regarding baseball and basketball...do us all a favor and read the 2 articles in the CF Journal by Josh Everett about his training college baseball and basketball teams using "CrossFit." Notice that he has baseball players doing, GASP!, benchmark girl workouts...and the coaches notice a positive result of their additional conditioning work at practice. Are the 2 programs identical? No, but they are pretty damn close.

Regarding the runner example, Seb Coe, one of the most dominant 800m/1 mile runners in history did weight circuits throughout the year that included stuff like heavy front squats and pull-ups.

Two additional points:
1) During the GPP phase, they would be running both fewer and less-intense miles.
2) It is possible to train for strength without adding size.

- Alex
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:32 AM   #137
Ewen Roth
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
Again, I am just confused where you get this crap. Here is a quote from an strength coach from an elite program. From the quote, tell me what sport he trains (without using google):

"[We focus on Bench, box squats, and hanging power cleans.] We test 1-3 rep maxes and do cluster work in the 78-90% ranges for 2-4 reps with sets ranging as high as 20! Itís simple, our strength work is to get strong and our assistance work is to stay healthy. I think youíve seen how this has truly worked for us, as weíve been able to impose our will over much bigger teams than us the past few years simply because we were stronger."

Quote war!

"All of our training year-round is dependent on what skill development session the athlete will do that week. If we impede on that, we havenít done our job. Our job is to prepare and facilitate those skill sessions."
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:23 AM   #138
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
Quote war!

"All of our training year-round is dependent on what skill development session the athlete will do that week. If we impede on that, we havenít done our job. Our job is to prepare and facilitate those skill sessions."
I said, "without google!"
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:22 PM   #139
Ewen Roth
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
I said, "without google!"
I didn't say what sport it was, nor do I really care. This conversation lost all meaning when it was decided that "sports" means basketball and football (maybe baseball if we reaaaaaally stretch the definition) and "GPP" means strength work.
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:38 PM   #140
Mark Boyle
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Regarding baseball and basketball...do us all a favor and read the 2 articles in the CF Journal by Josh Everett about his training college baseball and basketball teams using "CrossFit." Notice that he has baseball players doing, GASP!, benchmark girl workouts...and the coaches notice a positive result of their additional conditioning work at practice. Are the 2 programs identical? No, but they are pretty damn close.

Regarding the runner example, Seb Coe, one of the most dominant 800m/1 mile runners in history did weight circuits throughout the year that included stuff like heavy front squats and pull-ups.

Two additional points:
1) During the GPP phase, they would be running both fewer and less-intense miles.
2) It is possible to train for strength without adding size.

- Alex
What is your point exactly here?
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