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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 06-06-2009, 08:36 AM   #381
Chris Kemp
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Mat Frankel View Post
Well after rereading the SB article the protocol (correct me if I am wrong and I will make the changes) said that you see-saw the weight up 5 lbs per exercise/set/week so starting for example at 3x5 @ 100. Set 1, 100, set 2, 105, set 3, 110...week 2, Set 1, 105, Set 2, 110, set 3, 115
Once you finish a week on the sheet you will need to re enter your new weights and it will recalculate what you should be doing. Does that clear it up?
Mat, the goal is to increase the load on the top end set. No need to increase the ramp up sets as well.

Last week my deads looked like this

5x311, 5x355, 5x377lb, 5x390lb

This week they looked like this

5x311lb, 5x355lb, 5x377lb, 5x400lb (should have been 395lb but loading lb and kg this just proved simpler)

So you see that the ramp up remains the same, just a slightly bigger jump to the money set. Of course once you have made a total jump of 20 - 40lb you may need to reconsider things a bit.

On the subject of see sawing up - this is a reference to flipping between 3 and 5 rep sets. Using my example above, I think I may get 5x405lb next week but 5x410lb the week after may be pushing things too far. So instead, I'll probably switch to 3's and try for 3x415lb and ramp up from there.

Does that make things clearer?

Cheers, kempie
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Old 06-06-2009, 09:55 AM   #382
Darrel I. Mitchell
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Chris Kemp View Post
One of the major questions seen so far is Whats the deal with the high rep sets? You mean we do these as well as the ME? And the metcon?

OK, thats three questions but that seems to be the centre of folks difficulty with the program.

In practical terms the high rep sets seem to convert our limit strength increases to something usable in Crossfit workouts. It is a big contributor to the effectiveness of the program.

Once you have completed the ramp up cycle suggested in the Journal article then 3 days a week you will be doing some form of high rep work in addition to your ME sets.

Monday ME Back Squats + metcon
Tuesday ME Deadlifts + high rep deadlifts + metcon
Wednesday Rest
Thursday Metcon
Friday ME Front Squats + high rep back squats + metcon
Saturday ME Press + high rep press + metcon
Sunday Rest

For back squats only one high rep option is suggested (ie 15 - 20 reps). The multiple sets suggested for deadlifts and presses proved too much to recover from for pretty much every crash test dummy.

For deadlifts and presses two main options are given.

A single high rep set of somewhere between 12 and 21 reps. If you stick with the single set option (in general these are easier to recover from than the multi-set options) then once you hit the upper limit with a given load increase the weight next week and start working your way up again.

A multi set option (eg 15-12-9 or 10-7-4). For consistency a fixed rest of somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes between sets is recommended. If you successfully complete all 3 sets unbroken than move on to a greater volume option ie 15-12-9 => 21-15-9. If not then repeat next week.

Starting out on these high rep sets I would suggest starting with a single set of 12-15 and start with a load you know you could comfortably get 10 with. As long as you get 12 or so stick with that load and keep repeating that single set week on week until you manage 15 or more. Now is the time to try something like 12-9-6 (or even 10-7-4 for the press)
Can you clarify for me the concept of allowing the muscles to recover after a workout and the idea of practicing other movements after or before workouts using some of those same muscles? Isn't this in conflict with the recovery period?
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Old 06-06-2009, 12:36 PM   #383
Chris Kemp
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Darrel I. Mitchell View Post
Can you clarify for me the concept of allowing the muscles to recover after a workout and the idea of practicing other movements after or before workouts using some of those same muscles? Isn't this in conflict with the recovery period?
It may be at odds with whatever you may have read but it works. Obviously you have to be a little judicious with your metcon programming but it is very possible to work movements heavy, light and fast all in the same day's session and recover sufficiently to train the next day.

I'm pretty sure that the practical application of the program has been more than adequately outlined in the initial article and the preceding thread.

Cheers, kempie
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:01 PM   #384
Ronald Coleman
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Chris Kemp View Post
Mat, the goal is to increase the load on the top end set. No need to increase the ramp up sets as well.

Last week my deads looked like this

5x311, 5x355, 5x377lb, 5x390lb

This week they looked like this

5x311lb, 5x355lb, 5x377lb, 5x400lb (should have been 395lb but loading lb and kg this just proved simpler)

So you see that the ramp up remains the same, just a slightly bigger jump to the money set. Of course once you have made a total jump of 20 - 40lb you may need to reconsider things a bit.
Sorry to jump into this discussion late. kempie what percentages are you using to ramp on the first 3 sets and the money set? I've never understood the percentages of ramping.
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Old 06-06-2009, 02:38 PM   #385
Chris Kemp
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Ronald Coleman View Post
Sorry to jump into this discussion late. kempie what percentages are you using to ramp on the first 3 sets and the money set? I've never understood the percentages of ramping.
Ronald, I generally just have an idea of where I want to be and make the jumps based on experience of what I need to get my body ready. Actually, I neglected in the examples above my first set each week of 5x223. From experience I have found that a sharper ramp up does not get me ready for heavy stuff and smaller jumps (ie closer to my top weight) end up tiring me out.

If I am trying to find a ball park 5rm or 3 rm for a new lift or after a lay off I will start fairly conservative and just step up 10kg or so at a time until I'm getting close. From then on I'll step up with 5kg jumps until rep speed really slows down. Generally, I'll call that top set for the day and try and edge it up the next week with a more directed ramp up.

Cheers, kempie
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Old 06-06-2009, 03:27 PM   #386
Darrell E. White
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

Andrew,

I had quite a bit of success putting the O-lifts into the short heavy met-cons. I think I got the CFSB strength benefit from the unique protocol, and I also got more explosive by using O-lifts in the met-con.

Just another thought. Glad to see another EPH enjoying CFSB.

--bingo
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Old 06-07-2009, 01:42 PM   #387
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
Andrew,

I had quite a bit of success putting the O-lifts into the short heavy met-cons. I think I got the CFSB strength benefit from the unique protocol, and I also got more explosive by using O-lifts in the met-con.

Just another thought. Glad to see another EPH enjoying CFSB.

--bingo
A Williams man! I'm a fairly recent grad myself - I enlisted in the Army after graduating and the CFSB/oly-bias programming is definitely where its at for me.

Today I did max squat snatch (failed at my PR of 185 lbs., but hit 175), then did a 17-rep max front squat. I'll admit, I wussed out. I had no idea what it would feel like. It goes to show that metabolic stress can be instilled without having to use circuit training methods. It's a different kind of toughness to be able to squeeze out another few reps without putting the bar down than it is to do a circuit.
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:22 AM   #388
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

Alright, I've read everything again - the primary source article, this entire thread, a lot of the accompanying tangents - and I've hit the gym hard and I've got to say that I'm impressed. Kudos to the crew who tested it out, all of the folks at Brand X like Jeff Martin, and of course Kempie and Bingo (don't want to leave anybody out so I'll just say thanks to everybody involved). I think that it's an excellent S&C program for the understrong (that is to say, those for whom the ability to recruit strength and power is the limiting factor on many CF WODs and other fitness challenges). And man, those high-rep strength movements are rough. They build firebreathers!

I've tweaked it to serve my own needs (and my own schedule - I have certain physical requirements for my job that demand my attention and my energy). The tweaks are basically this - where it says deadlift, I squat snatch. Where it says back squat, I front squat. Where it says shoulder press, I bench press. Nothing against those other movements, but these are the movements that I've targeted for my own personal benefit. Back squats cause twitches in my back (and front squats are excellent for targeting the ability to extend the hips under load), shoulder presses don't build push-up power as well as the bench press does (again, work requirements), and the squat snatch is the most transferable exercise of all - it builds strong deadlifts and a bunch of other movements as well.

Enough about that - I just want to express my glee at having found a program that can translate my strength and maximal power gains into athletic usability. That's what this program is about - creating a well-balanced athlete. It just happens to be most useful for those of us whose weakness is in fact our weakness, and who don't want to sacrifice any of the ten physical characteristics while building raw strength. Thanks again,

Andrew
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:26 AM   #389
Mat Frankel
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

Chris that helped alot thanks for the clarification.
I don't think that making a spreadsheet for CFSB is practicle. I don't think there is a formula that you can put into excel that will put out numbers that will be completley accurate with the amount that you can push youself to lift 5 more pounds. The overall set up of the sheet I think works and can be used to record your lifts but on any given day you may not be able to do what the equation says or you may be able to do a lot more. I'd scrap the newer version of the sheet i uploaded and use the blank one to record weights and go by feel.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:39 AM   #390
Kevin Valentin
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Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!

Monday Morning- ME Deadlifts + high rep deadlifts, Evening-metcon
Tuesday Morning- ME Front Squats + high rep back squats, Evening-metcon
Wednesday Rest
Thursday Metcon
Friday Morning- ME Press + high rep press, Evening- metcon
Saturday Morning- ME Back Squats, Evening-metcon
Sunday Rest

What would be some good METCOMS after each so not to weaken myself for the next day.

The only reason I am doing it like this is because I screwed up and did deadlifts on monday instead of the back squats LOL!!!

Thanks.
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