CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > Community > Stuff and Nonsense
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Stuff and Nonsense For off-topic chatter. Keep it PG-13; no sex, politics or religion!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-19-2007, 06:04 PM   #21
Darren Zega
 
Profile:  
Posts: n/a
Re: What would you do?

I don't like it either, but Joe is on the money.

From personal experience, I was "lucky" enough to get jumped by 4 people one time. It doesn't happen anything like what you would think.

Now, I'll caveat this by saying I have about 13 years, combine, of karate/self defense/ combatives experience. I've been in my share of stupid school-yard fights over dumb sh*t that didn't matter and one bar fight. I've can tell you that no matter how much time you spend in a ring and no matter (and, god, BJJ Krav guys are the worst about this) how much self-defense training you think you have, your never ready for the first time you get a pool cue broken over the back of your head because you look at some roid-rage poster-kid's girlfriend (not asking for sympathy, they were all the result of stupid decisions I shouldn't have made and places I shouldn't have been). When the adrenaline starts pumping, you can't consciously think to save someone.

Now, talking about myself as a trained fighter: I can win a fight against one person if they don't have a weapon or if they have aforementioned pool cue. I can win a "fair fight" in a dojo against two people (fair fights don't exist outside the dojo). And I can break someone's arm (at least I think I did if the sound was any indication) and run like hell for or five blocks when I get jumped by four people. The fight or flight instinct comes in and everything falls apart. The fight instantly goes to the ground, it turns into a sprawling, flailing mess of bodies and there's no way to maintain any control. But trying to stand and fight? No chance in hell.

It sounds horrible, but a situation like this, there is nothing you could do save call the police. Statistically (this one is from one of my friends who's a gang unit cop in NJ) if there are more than four people involved in something like this, one of them has a knife. If there's ten, one of them has a gun. The BEST thing (an I don't mean that as the choice between bad and worse) you can do is get on your cell phone, call the cops, pull out a pen and paper, write every last detail you can think of down. Now, I'll be the first perosn to say that it were a close friend or family member, logiv be damned - I'm going in with arms flailing. But otherwise, it's better in the long run to not make more victims.

Last edited by Darren Zega : 12-19-2007 at 06:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 06:45 PM   #22
Mark Miller
Member Mark Miller is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Annapolis  Maryland
Posts: 153
Re: What would you do?

Im a cop and watching that ****es me off. Remember when you call the cops the first responder has a duty to respond and you are expecting him or her to do what? Go in and fight, right? So why can't you? Yeah yeah I can hear you already, but you have a gun, a badge, a this a that. Sometimes that doesn't mean CRAP. I carry Gun, Knife, OC Spray, Handcuffs, radio, and gloves. pretty much all I need in this situation. When people say to me Yeah but you have a gun. Exactly so every fight I get into there is always a gun involved. If I am responding I am not going to stand there and wait I am going in and try to rescue the victim first. If that takes laying somone out so be it. Hopefully my backup gets there quick and we can employ strength in numbers.

As a citizen I am going to try and extract the guy from that. Try to express to them, thats enough, hopefully it works grab the guy and go. Try and get the guy to a vehicle or near other onlookers and protect him. Sometimes people are just standing around waiting for someone else to react and take action and then they will follow. Its just natural some people are born leaders and others followers. A leader needs to step up and the followers will fall in behind. Dont be the guy watching the person get beat to death. Ask yourself if you can live with that. Its the "I don't want to risk my safety" stance that allows these punks to continue to do this. Did you see the cars just keep driving? When the Kid was getting stomped outside of the truck are you gonna just keep driving Joe? I hope you at least open your door and strike the offender and try to pull the kid to safety.

Have I been jumped? Yes, when I was 17yo. 2 on 10 not good odds. By the grace of GOD I survived. Got beat, knocked out, thrown into the street in front of a car which I was told almost ran over me. Sent to the hospital and to this day still have scar on my face to remind me of that day. NO ONE STOPPED TO HELP. How did I get out. When I woke up I was getting beat. I stood back up and began swinging and moving until I was out and running, luckily I survived. My point you gotta do something. I hope the thugs cut the parts of the citizens who helped out because there has to be people with enough BALLZ to get involved.

If we as a society allow this to happen it will not end it will only gain momentum and become out of control. Don't rely on your local Law Enforcement help your fellow man and fight back.

As far as the conceal and carry. My feeling is that the fight will be on before you will be able to access your weapon. So realize that you are going to have to defend yourself prior to getting to the weapon. I hope that you are able to do that before you get knocked out or to the ground and they take your gun and shoot you.

BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA IS KING.

Not a sermon just a thought.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 07:03 PM   #23
Jason Lopez-Ota
Member Jason Lopez-Ota is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Honolulu  Hawaii
Posts: 1,528
Re: What would you do?

I've been jumped, some help would've been nice. Knowing how to fight would help a lot also, being able to take a hit and give one back would be great because you WILL be hit. One of the punks went for what looked like a double leg also, getting slammed on your head is more dangerous than being punched. Having friends that can react would be good also.

Last edited by Jason Lopez-Ota : 12-19-2007 at 07:24 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 07:09 PM   #24
Derek Maffett
Member Derek Maffett is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Castle Rock  WA
Posts: 3,544
Re: What would you do?

I would agree with you that the cops can not be relied upon. Even if they get there three minutes after the call, that's still three minutes for someone to be beaten severely or killed. This is all the more reason for law abiding citizens to carry guns. Gangs would find that they can't do just anything anymore.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 07:21 PM   #25
Joe Cavazos
Affiliate Joe Cavazos is offline
 
Joe Cavazos's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston  Texas
Posts: 775
Re: What would you do?

Replying to you is hard, Mark. I hope everyone realizes I'm offering advice for how to be a person, not a policeman. I don't know much about being a cop, but...

Quote:
Remember when you call the cops the first responder has a duty to respond and you are expecting him or her to do what? Go in and fight, right? So why can't you?
As soon as a group of punk kids, hell, even a group of hardened gang members, hears sirens, they'll flee. Your presence as a cop will scare them even more. I've seen house parties become impromptu track meets when police show up, and that's because kids don't want to be caught drinking. Imagine their fear when they're likely to be charged with assault and battery.

Quote:
A leader needs to step up and the followers will fall in behind. Dont be the guy watching the person get beat to death.
These kinds of beatings happen in two places: isolated areas with no one around, and crowded areas where the crowd would be... what's the word I'm looking for... germane to the attackers, like a party. The video has both situations. Jumpings like this would not happen on a crowded street, because people would intervene and because the punks wouldn't even try it. In an isolated area, you have no chance of backup. In the social setting, your intervening has the very real chance of galvanizing the bystanders who are sympathetic (friends, acquaintances) to the attackers into jumping in and punishing you for attacking their friends.

Quote:
When the Kid was getting stomped outside of the truck are you gonna just keep driving Joe? I hope you at least open your door and strike the offender and try to pull the kid to safety.
I would keep driving, I would alert the authorities, and I would get myself out of danger, as I implore everyone else to. If I had one of those cop-packages some people put on their cars with the police sirens and stuff, I'd flip that on.
Getting out and striking the guy would just get me jumped by the crowd, except now the punks have my car, too.

I doubt this is the case, but it's food for thought: one of the beatings on that video could have been of a guy who thought he could save the day by running in and beating everyone up when they were on someone else in the video. And when you get angry watching the beating, remember that beating could have been avoided if the guy hadn't tried to take on 12 guys.
__________________
My WFS Log || Stats I'm least proud of: Max Muscle-ups: 1 | Max Push-ups: 38 | Max HSPU: 9 | 19" Vertical Leap | Max L-sit: 5 sec.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 07:47 PM   #26
Jason Lopez-Ota
Member Jason Lopez-Ota is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Honolulu  Hawaii
Posts: 1,528
Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post



As soon as a group of punk kids, hell, even a group of hardened gang members, hears sirens, they'll flee. Your presence as a cop will scare them even more. I've seen house parties become impromptu track meets when police show up, and that's because kids don't want to be caught drinking. Imagine their fear when they're likely to be charged with assault and battery.
Dude this isn't a Disney Movie. Have you ever been in a fight? You don't always think rationally in situations like that. Sure they might leave, on the other hand they might throw a brick at you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 07:51 PM   #27
Jason Lopez-Ota
Member Jason Lopez-Ota is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Honolulu  Hawaii
Posts: 1,528
Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post

These kinds of beatings happen in two places: isolated areas with no one around, and crowded areas where the crowd would be... what's the word I'm looking for... germane to the attackers, like a party. The video has both situations. Jumpings like this would not happen on a crowded street, because people would intervene and because the punks wouldn't even try it. In an isolated area, you have no chance of backup. In the social setting, your intervening has the very real chance of galvanizing the bystanders who are sympathetic (friends, acquaintances) to the attackers into jumping in and punishing you for attacking their friends.

Oh stuff like this happens in crowded areas all the time. In psychology I learned about how a woman was raped or killed in a crowded areas and nobody called the police. They all said that they thought someone else was going to call the police. Things happen all the time in crowded places an people rarely do anything besides watch.

I was jumped in an area that was not too isolated also.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:03 PM   #28
Joe Cavazos
Affiliate Joe Cavazos is offline
 
Joe Cavazos's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston  Texas
Posts: 775
Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Lopez-Ota View Post
Oh stuff like this happens in crowded areas all the time. In psychology I learned about how a woman was raped or killed in a crowded areas and nobody called the police. They all said that they thought someone else was going to call the police. Things happen all the time in crowded places an people rarely do anything besides watch.
That's Kitty Genovese, who I referenced earlier, and the concept is diffusion of responsibility. But that incident is famous because of the rarity of it. As for your anecdote, I'd file that under Exception, not Rule. I don't have the statistics in front of me, and I don't know if I could get to them, but I'm very confident if you looked at the settings for these gang jumpings, 99% of them would be in the two situations I described, not on Wall Street.

Regarding your Disney Movie comment, each of the 12 attackers wouldn't be so pressed that they abandon rationality. That state belongs to the victim. Each of the attackers takes a shot and runs away, takes a shot and runs away... that's not the behavior of someone who has regressed into an animalistic state because he or she fears for their life.
__________________
My WFS Log || Stats I'm least proud of: Max Muscle-ups: 1 | Max Push-ups: 38 | Max HSPU: 9 | 19" Vertical Leap | Max L-sit: 5 sec.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:32 PM   #29
Jason Lopez-Ota
Member Jason Lopez-Ota is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Honolulu  Hawaii
Posts: 1,528
Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post

Regarding your Disney Movie comment, each of the 12 attackers wouldn't be so pressed that they abandon rationality. That state belongs to the victim. Each of the attackers takes a shot and runs away, takes a shot and runs away... that's not the behavior of someone who has regressed into an animalistic state because he or she fears for their life.
Some things you overlooked on purpose: Some of the kids will take a shot and run off, others will sit around and kick/punch/etc. Would any of these kids walk outside and punch the 1st kid they see? 99% chance says no. They themselves have therefore abandoned rationality. One of them might throw a rock or try to hit a cop from behind. Or maybe even from the front. You never know what is going to happen. The fact is that there is no concrete rule that says that they have to scatter. Who knows maybe some even want to get arrested so that they can go brag to their friends about how "hard/gangster" they are. Same if one hits a cop, they can go around bragging about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2007, 08:38 PM   #30
Jason Lopez-Ota
Member Jason Lopez-Ota is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Honolulu  Hawaii
Posts: 1,528
Re: What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post
That's Kitty Genovese, who I referenced earlier, and the concept is diffusion of responsibility. But that incident is famous because of the rarity of it. As for your anecdote, I'd file that under Exception, not Rule. I don't have the statistics in front of me, and I don't know if I could get to them, but I'm very confident if you looked at the settings for these gang jumpings, 99% of them would be in the two situations I described, not on Wall Street.

Regarding your Disney Movie comment, each of the 12 attackers wouldn't be so pressed that they abandon rationality. That state belongs to the victim. Each of the attackers takes a shot and runs away, takes a shot and runs away... that's not the behavior of someone who has regressed into an animalistic state because he or she fears for their life.
People can be jumped anywhere and everywhere.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.