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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 05-26-2012, 01:53 PM   #11
Jordan Derksen
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Re: The Outlaw Way

When you look at it on paper it'll make you wonder why I follow it at all . Just so you know where I'm coming from a little history: last summer was when I was at the fastest I've ever been. In the fall I took some time off metcons to just Oly lift for a while following mikesgym.org; I really needed a mental break from metcons and I had been programming for myself for some time, but I went through lots of waves of overtraining myself so I knew I needed structure, I had to follow some sort of program. Following for a month I managed a 100kg Snatch and 122.5kg Clean and Jerk and gained another 10lbs bodyweight from dumping metcons and just lifting (the joys of building muscle when dumping conditioning: it just happens). I came back to crossfit having lost a bit of conditioning, but came back obviously stronger. I followed CFFB for a bit, honestly only a few weeks, and recall feeling great on the program as recovery on it is really easy (thought about giving it a real shot a couple times; real shot = more than 3 months), and then through a bunch of guys here I found Outlaw and immediately took to the heavy Oly lifting volume (if you pay attention Outlaw basically looks like mikesgym.org with added strength work and WODs) and highly skilled metcons. The only thing Outlaw has accomplished for me is allowed me to handle a crap ton of work. I never get beat up at competitions anymore. I haven't really gotten stronger, I haven't gained any weight (would like to be 200lb), I've managed a 125kg clean and jerk and still have not put up my previous 100kg best on the snatch (I take video though and I am deathly close to 105kg, I can easily get under it, just keep catching it foreward). In general my Oly technique has actually gotten worse. My conditioning times as well have not improved almost across the board. I PR'd a 8:00 Helen but my previous Helen PR from a year and a half ago was 8:05. So woopty doo. My Diane time is currently ~2 minutes slower. Elisabeth is about 2 minutes slower as well. My gymnastics skills have also declined and I expressed my MU frustrations in another thread on here (could do 15 in a row at one point. Now I can do 7 at best) but that was mostly due to a change in muscle up style. I did PR my HSPU at 21 just recently but it was while I took a bit of a break to just do the WODs at the affiliate I coach at (which was a much needed mental and what felt like physical break). On the positive side though is that in a field that doubled in size (400 to 800) I managed to place about 40 places better this year in the open and missed qualifying by .000001 of a burpee. I also did improve on 12.5 from 11.6 and went from 99 reps to 114. In general though I'll be honest, I feel like I've been just beating my head against the wall for the last 6 months. I'm very frustrated with training and have no idea what to do. I know what I need to do and have very clear goals written out, I just don't know how to get there. I got off Outlaw after regionals for a couple weeks and did my affiliate WODs for a while and felt great during that time but I ultimately missed the structured strength work and frequency of higher skilled gymnastics work that Outlaw programs; I honestly just don't know how to program that stuff effectively for myself, if I did I wouldn't be doing Outlaw.

When I really think about it I can sum it up like this: Everything that I'm good at now I was good at before, some of the things I was good at before I suck at now, and all the things I sucked at before I still suck at. I can give examples of all those.

Also I don't have a 500lb squat... I frickin wish I did. 375 squat right now. Oh ya, and interestingly my DL has gotten worse on a program that boasts mad improvements in your DL due to the Oly volume.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

I'm envisioning this thread being posted on Outlaw sometime soon... oh the flaming that will happen. I'll probably go underground for a while if that happens.

There is one possibility... I'm dumb as **** and am doing everything all wrong.

Evan, I didn't so much feel prepared for the Open as for regionals. His regional taper was really good. The other thing is I wonder how many people are PRing their Oly lifts from the program or purely from exposure to the lifts. A lot of those guys will be elite level already and have huge DL's and squats. They come on an oly heavy program and of course they're going to PR a lot cause they're technique flippin sucked before and they did it once a month. Just my observation.
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Last edited by Jordan Derksen : 05-26-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:53 PM   #12
David Meverden
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Re: The Outlaw Way

Thanks for posting Jordan. I'm pretty close to you in physical ability and am considering using their program at least for competition prep (2-3 months ahead of a competition) so it's great to hear a more varied representation of experiences than just Outlaw's coach talking about how awesome they are. It sucks to get pumped up listening to all the people who are perfectly suited for a program talk about how awesome it is and how everyone will make amazing gains and then struggle yourself to see gains. I've been there.

As for the abrasive environment over at outlaw I definitely feel you guys there, too. I've been recording the programming to compare it to others but have stopped reading the posts. It's just like Rips forum where anyone who disagrees or has different methods is an idiot who deserves to get torn apart by the followers.

I'm still really glad Outlaw puts their stuff up, as it's been rare in the past to see almost exactly what a lot of high end people are doing, and I still think I will use their stuff for comp prep as it works hard to hit the skills necessary for CrossFit but I'll keep in mind what you said and not get my hopes too high or feel like I'm never allowed to scale anything.

BTW, there were only 668 people who competed in your region? Wow. I'd have had a shot at top 60 if I lived there!
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Old 05-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #13
Ben Norris
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Re: The Outlaw Way

Edit: Not worth the hate.
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Old 05-26-2012, 10:33 PM   #14
James Orr
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Re: The Outlaw Way

I wouldn't continue in a program if it wasn't getting me where I wanted to go. Jordan, go over to santacruzstrength.com (WFS). Poke around and think about getting a personalized program. Jocelyn and Kyle are incredible and know how to get you where you want to go.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:05 AM   #15
Evan Peikon
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Re: The Outlaw Way

Jordan, can you pinpoint any specific short comming of the program? It seems like everyone else on it thrives like crazy, but they very well could be exceptions... Still though, I think the methodology of it looks great and wold consider trying it. That being said do you think its worth tring to see if it fits me or no?
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:59 AM   #16
Jordan Derksen
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Re: The Outlaw Way

Ya I definitely do think you should try it and I seem to be the exception. Give it a good month or more to really let it sink in, it takes a bit to get used to it. The methodology is great and Rudy is awesome for giving it all out for free. My tip would be just be very self aware and don't be afraid to make your own decisions based on how you feel. If you need to take a light day then do so. That's probably where I failed. So even if it says 'heaviest possible' and you feel like crap, don't do heaviest possible. Or find a 1RM Snatch? Ya I feel like crap today so I'm going to just go to 80% and work on technique. That kind of thing. Give yourself breathing room when needed and you'll probably do well. For me when I see heaviest possible or something I take that as a challenge, grit my teeth, and go as hard as possible. Some days you just can't do that.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:49 AM   #17
Evan Peikon
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Re: The Outlaw Way

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Originally Posted by Jordan Derksen View Post
Ya I definitely do think you should try it and I seem to be the exception. Give it a good month or more to really let it sink in, it takes a bit to get used to it. The methodology is great and Rudy is awesome for giving it all out for free. My tip would be just be very self aware and don't be afraid to make your own decisions based on how you feel. If you need to take a light day then do so. That's probably where I failed. So even if it says 'heaviest possible' and you feel like crap, don't do heaviest possible. Or find a 1RM Snatch? Ya I feel like crap today so I'm going to just go to 80% and work on technique. That kind of thing. Give yourself breathing room when needed and you'll probably do well. For me when I see heaviest possible or something I take that as a challenge, grit my teeth, and go as hard as possible. Some days you just can't do that.
Then were all to similar. Im the kind that needs to be reeled back my their coach as opposed to inspired to do more which always get me burnt out back in high school track, cross country, and wrestling. What i think I'm going to do is combine the ''outlaw way'' and ''Crossfit outlaw'' programming. SO for example if outlaw says :

1) 5X2 Snatch @ 85% – rest 60-80 sec.
Notes: These ARE NOT touch & go reps. Reset before each rep.
2a) 3X3 Snatch Pulls – heavier than last week, rest 60 sec.
2b) 3X3 Heaving Snatch Balances – heavier than last week, rest 60 sec.

then i may do outlaw cross fits bb gymnastics which is:
1) 12 Minutes to establish 1RM snatch balance
+
the outlaw ways metcon (essentially the same for both programs accept for this day the 21 GHD sit-ups on the outlaw way are 21 V-ups on outlaw crossfit)
+
the strength portion for outlaw way.

Essentially for a given day the programs have the exact same metcon (except saturday). Then the outlaw crossfit either does a watered down version of the BB Gymnastics OR strength. Also i figure the very technical BB Gymnastics may not be appropriate for me yet, and just getting exposure everyday would probably help me enough. I figure I'm strong enough to deadlift 310lbs @150lbs so i should be able to snatch more than 115 but i know technique hold me back (I'm going to a usaw course soon though so that should help).

this way i can regulate how much work I'm doing and not get burnt, but also not be screwing with the program beaucse id just be doing the watered down version on a given day written by rudy also.

-Just realized how long this post was. Hopefully you don't pass out from boredom in the process of my rant....

Last edited by Evan Peikon : 05-27-2012 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:33 AM   #18
Jay Rhodes
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Re: The Outlaw Way

I'm a huge believer in his programming. Depending who you are (and Jordan touched on this) you've got to realize where you're at. If the volume is too high, cut it back.
It takes some thought on how to adjust a program for yourself, and I think that's where all the sarcastic comments stem from.
It is designed for competitive crossfitters and the blog admins (keep in mind it's Drywall!) don't want to spend time tailoring a program for everyone. Most questions are answered, but I get why people tread lightly.

Now, also keep in mind that with it being designed for competitive crossfitters, that doesn't mean that anyone can't benefit from a program that is essentially based around Olympic Lifting and Gymnastics, getting really strong, and monitoring the amount of reps/time domains in conditioning.
The program wont have to be modified by Regional athletes, some may even require a little more from time to time, if you're not quite at the level then you can absolutely still benefit from the program....just learn how to scale it back. Hell take an extra rest day when you need it. That's what I've done.

I've researched a lot of programming and for a long time just did it for myself. This is the first stuff I've come across that I completely trust.

If you're constantly beat up from ANY programming, then you may need more rest days, better sleep, better nutrition, etc, etc. Sure it's a possibility that the programming is bad, but I don't think that is the case here.
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Old 05-27-2012, 04:52 PM   #19
Daniel Wheeler
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Re: The Outlaw Way

Evan, given your current strength numbers I would suggest getting on a dedicated strength program and upping those. You have a lot of room for simple linear gains. I've never done rudy's programming and I don't know you but you're likely the case of where your strength numbers on a percentage based strength program would progress faster than the prescribed percentages would reflect. (I.e. percentages holding back adaption)


But anyway. The best program is the one you stick with.
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Old 05-27-2012, 05:03 PM   #20
Evan Peikon
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Re: The Outlaw Way

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Originally Posted by Daniel Wheeler View Post
Evan, given your current strength numbers I would suggest getting on a dedicated strength program and upping those. You have a lot of room for simple linear gains. I've never done rudy's programming and I don't know you but you're likely the case of where your strength numbers on a percentage based strength program would progress faster than the prescribed percentages would reflect. (I.e. percentages holding back adaption)


But anyway. The best program is the one you stick with.
You'd be right, strength is my weakness. I figured since outlaw is based off of the conjugate method id be alrigh though, Because they constantly test one rep maxes, or prescribe ''heavy'' instead of a percentage.
Im also a big westside fan, and they train like that. Go as heavy as possible on a given day.

taking what you said into account though, (about what the best program is) i train for fun/ enjoyment and i do enjoy metcons/ oly lifting so this program will fit that. That being said ill try it for awhile and if it doesn't fir what I'm trying to do i can find another program that better fits me.
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