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Old 08-20-2003, 01:20 PM   #11
Ahmed Moussa
 
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the thing about insulin is its two sides. on one hand we have a very powerful anabolic hormone which if creating a spike in the body, post workouit, may be the best time. however, we also have an even more powerful lipogenic hormone which lingers for hours. insulin stays around for a good part of a day when secreted, and theres just way too much evidence supporting against chronically elevated insulin levels. robb, correct if me im wrong, but wouldnt an insulin spike at any time of day also raise your cortisol levels, completely dimishing the efficacy of the spike in the first place?

im really sorry that a creatine question turned to this. im considering going back to trying it out, especially under NHE eating guidelines. it may take around 10 grams to see results but ill tinker and let you guys know. take care.

p.s. robb, i just remebered your comment about insulin sensitivity post workout. if you could explain the state in which the body is in post workout in terms of insulin sensitivity that would be very helpful. thanks.

-ahmed
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Old 08-20-2003, 02:28 PM   #12
Patrick Johnston
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NHE?
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:21 PM   #13
David Heyer
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Robb, I went on www.testosterone.net and the first article on the top 7 creatine myths just re-enforced my bullheadedness. http://t-mag.com/html/10creat.html
Many years ago, I remember reading articles on the positive effects of sodium bicarbonate injestion. They both seem to produce similar results. Obviously, baking soda is a lot cheaper but may be harder on the stomach. What are your thoughts?
Dave
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Old 08-20-2003, 03:35 PM   #14
Ahmed Moussa
 
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oh sorry, natural hormonal enhancement. three days low carb and two carb load meals on the third day. im sure there was a lot of discussion on this board about the book, definitely worth checking out.

-ahmed
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Old 08-20-2003, 04:12 PM   #15
Robert Wolf
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Patrick-

NHE-Natural Hormonal Enhancement I will call you this evening after capoeira!

Ahmed- An insulin spike typically occurs in a fed state and it is unlikely to see a cortisol release at this time. We can however see rebound hypoglycemia after an insulin spike and that hypoglycemic state will elicit a cortisol release.

The post workout insulin sensitivity is poorly understood and starts involving cell transport protiens...it gets complex quickly. IGF certianly plays a role and modification of the cell receptors plays a major role. This may seem a cop out but I dont think much is going to be gained from the research going into the exact mechanism involved here. We know exercise (particularly intense & intermitant) improves ensulin sensitivity as does sleep and mono unsaturated fats. Sorry I can not flesh that out further!

David-
Here is the second to closing paragraph from TC Louma's article:

"Hopefully, I haven't caused you to discard your 400-pound, one-month supply of creatine into the local landfill. Creatine is a great supplement; it cosmetically enhances your appearance by making your muscles look more full, and it gives you greater work capacity which, in the long run, will lead to greater legitimate muscle mass and strength."

When it is all said and done he conceeds it will increase work capacity and likely muscle mass as a consequence. He does not mention the studies showing how creatine can prevent ischemic reperfusion dammage or its positive effects on blood lipids. Is creatine the end all supplement? Well...maybe! I say this because it really does something! Most do absolutely nothing. And again it is available for pennies a day. Can one undo the evils of bad diet, little sleep and poor training with creatine? No, but if these paramaters are dialed in I think there is ample evidence to use creatine...aside even from its supposed performance benefits.

Creatine like sodium/potassium bicarb acts as a buffer. If one can buffer the effects of lactate and corbonic acid formation in the blood under extreme conditions performance can be enhanced. Creatines efficacy goes far beyond its utility as a buffer. As an asside most of the challenge with sodium bicarb was in achieveing a therapeutic dose without vomiting. This can be easily avoided using a mix of sodium and potassium bicarb solutions.

I think it is important to keep in mind these items add percentage points. They are not the base of a strength and conditioning program.
Robb
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Old 08-20-2003, 04:48 PM   #16
David Heyer
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Robb,
I eat my morning cornflakes out of the skulls of creatine users!:angry:
Ahh, I'm just kidding.....I don't eat cornflakes.
Thanks for the information.
Dave
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Old 08-20-2003, 05:43 PM   #17
Barry Cooper
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My two cents: I really think different people react differently to the same things. I also think you have to keep one eye on current biochemical and nutritional research, and the other eye on what works for you. Eye number two needs to maintain a certain distance from all the facts and figures.

I remember back in the eighties when--at least in my circle--"The Pritikin Principle" was the big thing. I don't know if he started the low fat thing, but he was involved. If you read it, you probably remember the Tasajara Indians (I'm not sure I spelled that right, though), and their 100 mile ball kicking contests.

The bottom line is it sounded well reasoned and plausible. I tried the diet, but I never felt right, so I bagged it. I'm not convinced even today that the be-all and end-all diet has been found. Definitely read stuff and try stuff, but we all have to make our own calls.

Rob is a smart guy, so creatine is definitely worth a shot, but if it doesn't work for you, bag it.

As for me, I'll try it some day, but I'm currently on a Kinks-style LOW BUDGET. I'm not even taking fish oil or a multivitamin. Somehow I still feel OK.
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Old 08-21-2003, 12:34 PM   #18
Robert Wolf
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Barry-
I totally agree. I usually give my recomendations with the caveat "tinker with it...see how it works." For me evolutionary biology and nutritional biochem, to paraphrase Bruce Lee, "point a way" but they are certianly not THE way. I have recomended three basic dietary protocols on this board: 1) Zone, 2) NHE 3) Massive Eating. All of these I recomend paleo type foods but each one approaches the issues of insulin control in a different way. All work well and may work better for some people than others...which is why I throw them out there and recomend tinkering.

The creatine issue for me is that it is cheap, seems to have broad ranging benefits, and is still consistent with my views of evolutionary biology and what not. As Loren Cordains article shows:
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/JANA%20final.pdf

A paleo type protocol is like taking a nutritional supplement...or is just the way we are designed to eat.

Great discussion!
Robb
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Old 09-17-2003, 07:45 AM   #19
Emil Berengut
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Guys, question-once I went through the loading phase and have been taking 5mg a day, do I have to keep taking it daily?What about the days that I don't workout? also, I heard some people cycle it. What are the usually cycle durations?
Thanks
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Old 09-17-2003, 10:04 AM   #20
Robert Wolf
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Emil-
Forget the loading phase...it was a great marketing ploy by Bill Phillips. Once you have been taking the creatine for a wekk or two it is fine to skip a day here and there or so simply dial back to a lower dosage.
Robb
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