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Old 08-08-2011, 07:38 AM   #151
Jay Rhodes
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Matthew Swartz View Post
Christ... this guy's back?

This is why I don't go on the boards on the weekends.
Yeah no kidding....
The entire weekend tests endurance. Event 1 was a huge endurance/survival test. The last one was pretty damn long too.

Those guys, and a heap of others who didn't make the games would gladly light up Dave on everything, including running.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:58 AM   #152
Dave Coughlin
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
The only problem with this would be the bikes, since I doubt many competitors brought their fixies with them. First, who's going to supply all of those bikes? Last I checked Trek and Specialized aren't heavily involved in our community. Second, the necessary prep would give away the event. You can't just have every competitor hop on a random bike. Bikes have to be fitted, and somehow I doubt that Spencer Hendel and Chris Spealer take the same frame size. It's a nice idea, but until cycling becomes a standard part of CrossFit programming, I don't see it as being feasible.

Also, I'm curious to know if you look down on the competitions use of C2 rowers in a similar fashion. If we should be using real bikes, shouldn't we also be rowing real boats?
(sorry for the delayed response...I like to not be on here on the weekend)

For some reason, I was under the impression that CFE had some kind of relationship with a bike manufacturer; apparently I am mistaken. I brought up fixed gear bikes to take away the advantage someone might have of proper gear use. Also, a 52-54cm bike can fit most men, so adding a couple larger and smaller sizes will accomodate most folks...not to mention:
10 fixies @ $1000avg cost < 7 exercycles @ $3k
I appreciate your general tone , but I was "looking down at the competition" more as devils advocate for the folks who paid $25 a seat.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:19 AM   #153
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Dave Johns View Post
200 m swim? 3 km run? 700 m bike?

Those distances are extremely short. Why even bother?

How can you make a claim to fitness when you don't even get past a warm-up? How is this functional fitness if any given toddler can do it?
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:25 PM   #154
Jamie Gowens
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Jeff Binek View Post
This got off on such a pointless tangent. Who cares about the real world functionality of any of this?
Because such a big deal is made about functional fitness in the certs?
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:46 PM   #155
Jeff Binek
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Jamie Gowens View Post
Because such a big deal is made about functional fitness in the certs?
And when did anyone say the certs were to get people ready for the CrossFit Games? In your everyday training, yes you should care about the functionality of your training for grandmothers, and the incapable. But when testing the elite fitness of these competitors that doesn't matter as much as testing them.
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Old 08-13-2011, 10:57 PM   #156
Justin McCallon
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Re: Final games thoughts

I'm still having trouble describing the concept I'm trying to push for. I'm usually pretty good with words. I'm not trying to make it a contest about who is the best at physical activity that people commonly do in everyday life.

I agree with you, Mauricio, that squats are a good test of strength. If you take 2 guys that are equally skilled at flipping tires, and that have equal length dimensions, then if A can deadlift a lot more than B, then A will flip tires better.

I guess the thing is that when you take someone like Spealler and someone like Hendel and have them compete doing squats/push-ups/deadlifts/snatches, that's not really going to be a great way to measure their ability to do real work. Spealler moves the weights half as far as Hendel. In "real life," you don't get to move half as far. Every event should be in the "move from A to B" in an absolute sense and not a relative sense.

I wish I could capture this concept better. I know what's going on in my head but this is a very rare instance that I can't put my thoughts to words at all. And yeah sorry for the awful military reference. I've never been a part or anything, but my dad was a major/sof and I did spend a lot of my life living on military bases so I'm not quite as ignorant as that post sounds if you read it the wrong way. Yeah obviously you're not climbing ropes a lot in war.
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Old 08-13-2011, 11:43 PM   #157
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
I guess the thing is that when you take someone like Spealler and someone like Hendel and have them compete doing squats/push-ups/deadlifts/snatches, that's not really going to be a great way to measure their ability to do real work. Spealler moves the weights half as far as Hendel. In "real life," you don't get to move half as far. Every event should be in the "move from A to B" in an absolute sense and not a relative sense.
Then the stronger guys -- usually meaning the physically larger guys -- will always win. Is that the outcome you want?

Personally, I don't think we needed Crossfit to tell us that stronger guys can do more work in absolute terms. But I question whether "strongest" necessarily equals "fittest," which is what the Crossfit Games are supposed to be measuring. There's all that other stuff that goes into fitness, too.

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Old 08-14-2011, 12:01 PM   #158
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
I'm still having trouble describing the concept I'm trying to push for...

I guess the thing is that when you take someone like Spealler and someone like Hendel and have them compete doing squats/push-ups/deadlifts/snatches, that's not really going to be a great way to measure their ability to do real work. Spealler moves the weights half as far as Hendel. In "real life," you don't get to move half as far. Every event should be in the "move from A to B" in an absolute sense and not a relative sense.
I think what you are trying to describe is simpler than you think. I think if I'm reading you right, you are interested in their Real [average] Power Output across a broad range of tasks. That is, who produces the most gross [average] power, superimposing bodyweight + external load (where applicable) across a broad range of tasks. This would account for the distance the load is actually moved, as well as individual anthropometry which affects how far different limb mass centers are moved during movement of bodyweight and load (which could me measured through accelerometers on each limb mass center).

Someone with a better understanding of Biomechanics correct me if I'm wrong on any of this but, unfortunately, I think the results would disappoint you, because the "smallest" athlete (highest power-to-weight ratio) would almost always win such a contest due to the more optimal leverage of a unit mass of bodyweight at a short lever versus a unit mass of external load or bodyweight at a longer lever (a bigger person). Air squats/burpees/running activities are almost always vastly more powerful over all but the shortest time domains (1RM Snatch/Clean 2nd pull) because the load (bodyweight) of a "smaller" athlete is almost perfectly distributed about the general CG with minimal leverage. The human body adds muscle mass in the most efficient way possible given some basic constraints (skeleton, organs), but still we will never achieve the relative efficiency of an ant. All weighted movements compromise this efficiency to varying degrees (e.g. front squat places inordinate mass concentration forward of CG), and the degree to which you arbitrarily bias it towards these important but slightly less powerful movements will be the degree to which it doesn't favor the smaller athlete. This would be compounded by aerobic tasks where muscle requires oxygen and again the smaller athlete is more efficient. You could add weighted tasks to shift the balance (arbitrarily), but then you decrease the coveted max average power output.

Let me know if I'm way off base of your original idea here .

Edit: It'd be an interesting study anyway, measuring actual power output, and I'm not absolutely certain my theory would be bourne out.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:02 PM   #159
Sean Dunston
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Dave Coughlin View Post
(sorry for the delayed response...I like to not be on here on the weekend)

For some reason, I was under the impression that CFE had some kind of relationship with a bike manufacturer; apparently I am mistaken. I brought up fixed gear bikes to take away the advantage someone might have of proper gear use. Also, a 52-54cm bike can fit most men, so adding a couple larger and smaller sizes will accomodate most folks...not to mention:
10 fixies @ $1000avg cost < 7 exercycles @ $3k
I appreciate your general tone , but I was "looking down at the competition" more as devils advocate for the folks who paid $25 a seat.
well... let's not count our chickens quite yet.

This isn't directed at you, Dave.

Do y'all realize that one piece of "equipment" on the CSUDH campus is a velodrome? I would be quite surprised if that isn't utilized in the next year or two.
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Old 08-14-2011, 09:28 PM   #160
Justin McCallon
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
I think what you are trying to describe is simpler than you think. I think if I'm reading you right, you are interested in their Real [average] Power Output across a broad range of tasks. That is, who produces the most gross [average] power, superimposing bodyweight + external load (where applicable) across a broad range of tasks. This would account for the distance the load is actually moved, as well as individual anthropometry which affects how far different limb mass centers are moved during movement of bodyweight and load (which could me measured through accelerometers on each limb mass center).

Someone with a better understanding of Biomechanics correct me if I'm wrong on any of this but, unfortunately, I think the results would disappoint you, because the "smallest" athlete (highest power-to-weight ratio) would almost always win such a contest due to the more optimal leverage of a unit mass of bodyweight at a short lever versus a unit mass of external load or bodyweight at a longer lever (a bigger person). Air squats/burpees/running activities are almost always vastly more powerful over all but the shortest time domains (1RM Snatch/Clean 2nd pull) because the load (bodyweight) of a "smaller" athlete is almost perfectly distributed about the general CG with minimal leverage. The human body adds muscle mass in the most efficient way possible given some basic constraints (skeleton, organs), but still we will never achieve the relative efficiency of an ant. All weighted movements compromise this efficiency to varying degrees (e.g. front squat places inordinate mass concentration forward of CG), and the degree to which you arbitrarily bias it towards these important but slightly less powerful movements will be the degree to which it doesn't favor the smaller athlete. This would be compounded by aerobic tasks where muscle requires oxygen and again the smaller athlete is more efficient. You could add weighted tasks to shift the balance (arbitrarily), but then you decrease the coveted max average power output.

Let me know if I'm way off base of your original idea here .

Edit: It'd be an interesting study anyway, measuring actual power output, and I'm not absolutely certain my theory would be bourne out.
W=F*D
P=W/T

But it's not quite that easy because I don't think body weight should count. You're always going to move your own body weight in anything you do. So it should be ignored in that equation (this helps smaller dudes btw), and otherwise everyone moves the same wieght the same distance.

The reason why you ignore body weight is because in any real world task, e.g., MMA, the big dude doesn't get an extra punch because he had to move so much weight to get to the other side.
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