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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 04-04-2005, 11:44 PM   #21
Michael Street
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Solid first post Eva - dropping knowledge!

For a sweet visual demonstration of motion in two dimensions and brachistochrone (path of least time) check this clip - http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~hoskins/Demos/balltrk5.mov

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/22/8995.gif

More work in less time = more power.
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:49 PM   #22
Tyler Hass
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Eva,
That's an incredible analogy! Thanks for posting it. I did a google search and found Dr. Twardokens' full article: http://www.psia.org/psia_2002/education/TPSArticles/coaching/tpsfall96cycloids.a sp
It's a great read, whether you ski or not.

Tyler
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Old 04-05-2005, 06:27 AM   #23
William Hunter
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This is great info for everybody, but it might be most valuable for those of us that still have to modify the WOD. How to modify gets asked all the time, but now you can use simple math to figure out what works best for you.

Dave Werner's post caused me to pull out some numbers from my last 2 attempts at Chelsea. One time I dropped all the numbers to 3 pullups/6 pushups/10 squats and was able to do a round per minute for 30 minutes. I was utterly hammered by this workout and was sore for 2-3 days. I saw later on the mainpage that most newbie's were going for it full strength, for as long as possible. I felt like a complete wimp so just the other day I did 5/10/15 as many rounds as possible for 30 minutes. I got 17 rounds. Good workout, but not as fried as before. Then I checked the math. Modified totals were 90 pullups, 180 pushups, 300 squats in 30 min. Unmodified for 30 min. yielded 85 pullups, 170 pushups and 255 squats. So in my own wimpy way I had a better power factor with my personal modifications. Now I can get out the calculator and crunch numbers until I find the best rep scheme for me to squeeze more work into 30 min. These calculations might be different for each individual, just like Coach said. For those of us hungry to improve, this might offer the most logical way to go about it, even if temporarily we have to perform heavily modified WO's.

Thanks to all for the great posts on this thread.
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Old 04-05-2005, 07:11 AM   #24
Matt O'Donnell
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Great post, Will!
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Old 04-05-2005, 08:47 AM   #25
David Werner
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Will

That is exactly what I'd hoped people would take from my discussion. Great modification.

A good rule of thumb for modification;
1) learn the movement, 2) adjust reps/weight to allow the greatest load possible without slowing yourself down too much.

Josh, that should address your question about jumping pull-up (good start for people who can't do good pull-ups, but reduces the load too much for most of us), and thrusters (maybe you're not strong enough to bang out good 95# thrusters like Greg A. - so use less weight until you can)

Bill

The Power equation depends on being able to generate some force in the first place, so we do work on limit strength. At Crossfit North, and in the WODs posted on this site, there are regular strength days. So Mondays training was medium heavy DLs. My programming either has 5 or so sets of low rep strength work before a more metabolicaly challenging workout (http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/) or has a focused strength day with only a few exercises, low reps, heavy loads. The former happens about twice a week, and the latter happens about once a week at CFN. I haven't trained with Greg Amundsen very often so I can't really answer that question. We do weighted pull-up training from time to time and of course kips don't work very well with a weight belt on. That kind of training falls into the strength training category and would be handled as I outlined above.

Here is the important point about weighted pull-up training. We only work on that specific movement occasionaly, prefering to mostly concentrate on Power, yet continue to get stronger.

Regards
Dave Werner
Crossfit North
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Old 04-05-2005, 09:50 AM   #26
Robert Wolf
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I think this may be one of the best threads Ever.

Matt-

I am not sure what to make of the dead hang/kipped discrepancy. I bounce between the 44-51 kipped pull up range and 28-31 deadhangs. My partner in crime here at Crossfit NorCal, Nicki, has 3-4 dead hangs and 25-30 kipps.
For her there may be some benefit to more strict work, I'm not sure. For myself I do not feel much improvement form weighted pullup training. I do notice benefit from muscleups, front and back levers and chasing things like the iron cross. In essence chasing these higher level strength moves from gymnastics. These movements drop me down into the 1-5 rep range and produce an enourmous amount of full body tension. good frinding type work IMO.

Michael- that demo is great. Longer distance traversed in less time due to greater acceleration.

Robb
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Old 04-05-2005, 10:15 AM   #27
William Hunter
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Matt and Dave, thanks for the compliments.

Dave, your power comments really turned on the lightbulb for me. I feel like I can now look at a WOD, even an overwhelming one, and break it down to my size. This will allow me to go balls to the wall with effort instead of spending too much of my allotted time staring at that heavy barbell on the floor waiting for enough strength to return to bang out another rep.

Maybe in another 6 months I'll be out of the pee wee league.
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Old 04-05-2005, 11:11 PM   #28
Eva Twardokens
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Micheal,
I have a model my dad created that mimmics the clip you posted. I will bring to Crossfit HQ.

The distance and speed are a few comparisons, but what about the lever arm in the pull-up? Can anyone shed some light on that aspect?
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Old 04-06-2005, 02:46 AM   #29
Alexander Karatis
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Yup, this has turned into another goldmine!:happy:

Robb,
I second your thoughts on using gymnastics as the best medium to chase strength. You make so much more progress at the same time, in many different aspects of fitness that do not negate your primary focus: strength. On the contrary, these constituents of fitness may help to promote strength even more than typical strength-centered approaches. Full body tension, coordination, balance, agility etc. can all be used complimentarily to develop yet more raw strength. Plus, by using gymnastics in "chasing strength" you learn a skill and have more fun.

Bill and Josh,

Your posts gave me a great idea (that I'm sure someone here has tried in the past).

Bill, your quest for a crossfitization of the weighted pullup can indeed make that pullup version a very beneficial exercise.

Josh, your question regarding the benefits of jumping pullups also leads toward the same goal.

In essence, what we want is a sufficiently demanding muscle-load coupled with complex, functional, multi-joint movements, that can be performed in such a pace/intensity so as to ellicit a powerful metabolic and neuroendocrine response. There is a sweet spot range between the different ends of the spectrum which I see as Muscle work Vs Metabolic work. If we get our exercise in that range, we can reap the benefits of both ends by realizing that one can indeed act complimentarily to the other, as long as we remain within that range.

Metabolic intensity will trigger a powerful neuroendocrine response which will in turn trigger profound muscle gains. Muscle work is a prime mover of metabolic intensity, and is in itself a trigger of profound muscle gains. As long as these two work together, we are in that range. That I believe, forms the staple of Crossfit. You use this range for your "core curriculum" and enrich it with various more fringe workouts (10Kers, low-rep work etc.)

In your two cases, your quests lead me to propose what I view as a very Crossfit-esque workout and which I'm sure someone here will pop up and tell us he's done it or does it often:

Weighted-Jumping Pullups. I haven't tried it yet but thinking about it makes me realize how much "good stuff" is packed in an exercise like this.

Again, great job to everyone for picking our minds!
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Old 04-06-2005, 05:33 AM   #30
bill fox
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Dave

Thanks. That article is great too. My thinking is that it may be better to do add in a couple days of kipping, "power" work days and do a couple days of really heavy days wieghted work, more PTP style, as opposed to all weighted 3x5, 5x3 as I have been doing. Will start tonight and report when I have time in to see what the effetct is.

Alex

I think there's one "flaw" in your idea, which the article Dave linked points out, although I'm just thinking out loud here. You say we could get in a range to "trigger profound MUSCLE GAINS" (emphesis added) I'm not sure that's really what we're looking for, or at least I'm sure it's not what I'm looking for.

The article talks about bodyweight as the missing link and I have found this to be very true. Of course for the relatively "untrained" subject muscle growth is the key. Once a certain level is achieved though the trick is strength without BW - the PTP formula. Tension generation, CNS, tendon stength and the abiltiy to generate speed.

The combo of speed /power work (kips) and 2x2-3 at 85-90% (PTP) may be better then staying in that hypertrophic mid range??? Maybe???

Great ideas all around.

Bill
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