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Old 09-12-2008, 03:50 AM   #31
Sarah Scholl
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
Agreed, but what is the alternative?
.
the alternative is to have LEVELS. All the way to elite.

You have to be able to execute certain things correctly before you move on to the next level. The interview talks about progression. For example...you have to be able to do 20 pull ups without a band, 10 real handstand push ups...etc before moving up to level II. You stay in your level, doing WODs only appropriate for your ability until you are capable of moving up and doing more. The elite level would be the only level allowed to compete in the Games..with QUALIFIERS, so they dont have people competing who cant even do the WOD as Rxd.

Derek, I understand what crossfit has been, and what it IS, but I think this is a necessary step.
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Old 09-12-2008, 06:57 AM   #32
Tirzah Harper
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Sarah, don't we already have acknowledged levels of differentiation? Or are you asking for something more rigidly quantified?

Isn't the playing field fairly self-leveling? I mean, I've never been to the Games, but it would seem to me that those who can't do the WOD as Rx'd eliminate themselves by dint of not being able to do the WOD as Rx'd, not by having a certain level or rating attached to their names.

I can do some level II skills, a few level III achievements, and I'm still lacking a few level I accomplishments. Are you suggesting that I should be held down to only level I skills until I have accomplished ALL of those before I'm allowed to attempt anything from a higher level?

If CF turns into this, it won't be the CF that I fell in love with years ago. I am not an elitist; I am not a professional athlete; I am not a labeler. I understand that you are a very competitive person who is very good and confident about what you do. If I recall correctly, you're also pretty new to CF, are you not?

It's an excellent idea to have more and better instruction for people, but it's not an excellent idea to make CF into something with rigid levels and requirements. That's quite simply not functional across broad modal domains.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:15 AM   #33
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Sarah,
Why is it neccesary? I have been removed from contention from the CF games by my own recognition of my inadequacy. I can still do most WODs as rxed, even if Speal for example or probably you, would have time to warm up,WOD cool down and eat a PWO meal in the time it takes me to do the WOD. What will be the benefit to the community or the actual program with strict levels? I see a benefit to egos, but, not to anything else. I am arguably the fittest person where I work and the SME on fitness, yet I am still not above novice/intermediate levels CFN level i and II on most things. But I don't have to be, I just have to be motivated enough to do the WOD and responsible enough to scale and police my form. If I can manage that how am I not doing the same CF as Speal, Greg A et al.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:21 AM   #34
Tirzah Harper
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

I will add that one of my favorite things about CF is its assumption that I have a perfectly good brain of my own AND the desire to use it.
It's self-determining.

If I push too hard and get rhabdo, it's my own damn fault. If I don't push hard enough and don't see much results, ditto. I don't rely on anyone else to tell me where my limits are. I don't expect anyone else to keep me safe.

CF's presumption of self-reliant brainpower is one of the few bastions left here in the States where playgrounds aren't much fun anymore because they're eliminating all the equipment that kids might get hurt on, and freedom of activity is curtailed for fear of lawsuits.

Please, don't set up a system of levels that will take away individual responsibility and put it back on the authority structure.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:31 AM   #35
Matt Schellinger
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Very well said, and agreed upon Tirzah.
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:39 AM   #36
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

"Please, don't set up a system of levels that will take away individual responsibility and put it back on the authority structure. "

I agree. The games will always be self-regulating. As far as someone saying "I do CF just like you", who cares. Yeah, it's stupid for me to say "I lift weights, just like Matt Kroczaleski", but if you always harp on "I'm level 3 and they're only level 1" it makes you look insecure. I see your point, but the way you suggested is not the way to go.

Now, if you are scaling every workout, and you tell people you do CF, you may want to bring up that salient point.
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:17 AM   #37
Zack Murphy
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Hell, I'll debate 'em.

They also get a lot wrong. We're not all just a bunch of cavalier, reckless neophytes throwing CF at the unready masses, dropping Helen on grandmothers without scaling, pre-training, progressions, etc.

The vast majority of CF'ers are fine doing kipping pull-ups, and I do significant training with my clients before we start anything like that. It's not just 1) get new client, and 2) start flinging weight around.

Also, though I'm not a fan of the kettlebell, I'm not sure what KB lifts they're so upset about. In most CF affiliates, the only KB lift I see is the russian or american swing, andf that's not a "bastardized" lift. Not sure.

Further, doing >6 Oly lifts IS contraindicated most of the time, but that's when loads are near max. If my max C & J is 195, doing a bunch of them at 95# is fine. We're not doing Grace with max loads.

Those two are not immune from misinformation, misunderstanding the point, etc.

Anyway, yes, a great segment, and if you can't defend CF intelligently, then you shouldn't be doing or selling CF.
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:08 AM   #38
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

My principal argument with the segment is that at the ENTRY LEVEL CF cert form is emphasized, with the understanding that it will degrade at high intensity and a trainers job is to walk that line w/ their clients. They also talked about the lawsuit w/o mentioning that it was a fairly benign WOD and that there could be other causes or force multpilers at work. Or that Rhabdo is not exclusively a CF disease. They have also dis regarded that people who really need NEED high levels of GPP aren't flocking to their programs, they're flocking to CF. I think that's both a valid point and an ulterior motive.
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:09 AM   #39
Jonathan Gaffney
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

First I want to thank the moderators for allowing this thread to exist. I was disappointed when it went right to the bucket. I think it's important objectively evaluate the criticism that comes up, and find if maybe there is some validity to what's being said.

I thought the whole interview is very much worth a listen. Some of it's painful to hear, some of it is illinformed, and some is valid. I am very interested to hear peoples take on this sort of criticism as I am entertaining the idea of starting my own affiliate. So from the business perspective researching the cons of CrossFit is equally important to knowing the pros.

I am going to address the main points that Boyle made and then my opinion on them.

1) He has an issue with people doing WOD well before they have the skills to properly and safely execute them. This is definitely an issue. We have all seen YouTube videos or pics on affiliate websites with people clearly doing movements or moving weights they shouldn't be. BUT, the problem with Boyle's arguement is that he makes the statement regarding all of CrossFit when really it is a case by case basis. Coach and the Main Page encourage scaling and progression on skills. The Journal article "Vituosity" is a great read in regards to this.

2)He talks a lot about the pending lawsuit, and how the "false bravado" surrounding CrossFit could impact the case. i.e. Pukie the Clown, Uncle Rhabdo, and Ruthless being in the name of the sued affiliate.This one is hard to me. On the one hand that bravado is part of the draw of CrossFit. It's fun knowing that your workout is more BA than 95% of people. And being cocky/confident about it is fun. However although CrossFit does try to get responsible coaching and the dangers of Rhabdo, it doesn't always seem to be in a serious enough light. The dangers of GHD situps and the need for a warning when they come up in WOD have been discussed on the boards, but not much action seems to be taken. Vomiting after a workout should not be a red badge of courage, it's a sign that you've gone to far. You don't see runners talking about "Crappy the Clown" because they tend to deficate themselves when pushing the limits of human exertion... These things definitely impact public perception and opinion on CrossFit and could end up hurting it legally.

3)Boyle doesn't think Olympic lifts shouldn't be done by people who didn't learn them growing up.Seems ridiculous to me. With proper coaching you can learn to effectively do anything. Proper coaching is the key here though.

4)He mentions the lack of recovery, and that even professional atheletes only compete once or twice a week. Whereas as CrossFitters are competing everyday in the gym.I thought this might have been his most salient point. At first I took my own experience as a wrestler and was like well when I wrestled I did two hr practices everyday 100%, lifted 4 days a week, and competed on Saturdays and I was fine. After which my wife reminded me that I had a 6 month offseason and spent about 1+ hrs a day in the Athletic Training Room to maintain that. Considering the common recommendation is a half load week every four weeks on, and one week off every 12 weeks overtraining is a blatant possibility. And the sentiment to push to your max every workout is everywhere you look (check out the last post by Jon Gilson at againfaster). And although this subject has been discussed ad nauseum, a viable solution isn't there yet.

Okay I'll wrap it up. Overall Boyle makes broad generalizations without doing much due diligence in the research department and his thoughts must be taken with a grain of salt considering CrossFit directly competes with his business. He's like Windows and CrossFit is like Linux, open source, customizable, and gaining market share. Most of his criticisms could be extinguished with personal reponsibilty. Responsible coaching/teaching of movements, and scaling of workouts. People taking responsibility for their own physical limits, progessing through skills at a responsible rate...unfortunately that's something that is hard to police and hard to find.
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Old 09-12-2008, 01:44 PM   #40
Philip Stablein
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirzah Harper View Post
I will add that one of my favorite things about CF is its assumption that I have a perfectly good brain of my own AND the desire to use it.
It's self-determining.

If I push too hard and get rhabdo, it's my own damn fault. If I don't push hard enough and don't see much results, ditto. I don't rely on anyone else to tell me where my limits are. I don't expect anyone else to keep me safe.

CF's presumption of self-reliant brainpower is one of the few bastions left here in the States where playgrounds aren't much fun anymore because they're eliminating all the equipment that kids might get hurt on, and freedom of activity is curtailed for fear of lawsuits.

Please, don't set up a system of levels that will take away individual responsibility and put it back on the authority structure.
I think you finally put into words my favorite thing about CrossFit. Something that has escaped my own ability to explain the appeal to others...

Thank you.
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