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Old 09-26-2008, 06:29 PM   #111
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Steven,
I won't block you. A) I don't know how and B) It's just not that important. Hold tight to the idea that you didn't call the man classless, it's keeping you from violating the AUP. I don't think your last answer satisfied my curiosity, but you are under no obligation to answer me again, why post here vice ************, T nation or something like that if you can't identify yourself with CF? I'm perceived as something of an in real life too. We have that in common.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:53 PM   #112
Steve Liberati
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

I'm guessing there is more to this than we know to warrant such an agressive attack on one man's character. It would be rather disheartening to find out different.
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Old 09-27-2008, 11:51 AM   #113
Alex Europa
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

I'd love to see this thread get back on track. So, with that in mind, I'll cross-post my opinion that I left in the comments page the day of the CFR debut. I truly cannot wait for tomorrow's episode, it should be very enlightening to hear Boyle and Glassman "debate" the legitimacy of CrossFit. Hopefully, we'll get a chance to hear the man himself take the helm and debunk all of the typical complaints/issues that many of the other fitness communities have with CrossFit and to set the record straight.

Comment #58 - Posted by: Alex Europa at September 21, 2008 11:34 AM

WOW, just finished listening to the CFR debut followed immediately by the mentioned Strength Coach Podcast (which can be found on iTunes - Episode 19.5). It's absolutely STUNNING how misinformed these gentlemen are. They are obviously knowledgeable in the arena of fitness, but they are woefully lacking in solid data regarding their arguments against CrossFit. Some examples:

Kipping as cheating. Well, I'm not even going to go into this. If people are REALLY still making this argument and don't understand that a kipping pull-up is a different exercise that has different objectives than a dead hang pull-up, then they have proven my point about not doing their research before speaking.

Rhabdo: This is one of the most common arguments that I see. People state that the CrossFit community is filled with false bravado regarding Rhabdomyolosis. Judging by the fact that there are several publicly available CFJ articles which state the dangers of Rhadbo and that our job as trainers is to properly indoctrinate our clients to this potentially fatal injury, I'm not sure where they are getting their data. A t-shirt?! Come on! So the ENTIRE CrossFit community laughs in the face of Rhabdo and is leading people to face certain death because one guy decided to make a shirt. Obviously, these guys have never spoken with a CrossFit trainer regarding Rhabdo.

Secondly, their assertion about how "some guys" they've witnessed at training camps were putting out more wattage than we do in our WODs don't get rhabdo because they're technically sound. I challenge Mr. Boyle to present ONE CASE where a veteran CrossFitter has come down with Rhabdo. It hasn't happened, therefore his assertion isn't sound because he's comparing the output/technique of a novice CrossFitter to that of a seasoned athlete (I'm postulating that he/she is seasoned because they're at a training camp and referencing power output). Which leads me to my next point.

They mention that there isn't an emphasis on progression; that CrossFit advocates running through exercises without a care for technique. They even go so far as to say that we don't emphasize the deadlift before focusing on the clean. There are numerous references that show that it is understood that having a solid deadlift is a prerequisite to undertaking a barbell clean.

Speaking of the Olympic lifts, Coach Boyle states that the "fundamental rule of Olympic weightlifting" is "don't do more than six reps." He additionally states that "any good Olympic lifting coach" will tell you that any more than that and you "cannot not have the level of technical mastery that you need in the Olympic lifts." The coaches that he's referencing are speaking about using the O-lifts to achieve peak numbers on the lifts. Is he saying that an athlete that can POWER clean 200+ lbs, doesn't have the technical ability or requisite strength and stability to safely clean and jerk 135-lbs?

They clearly don't have all the data regarding the lawsuit placed against the FORMER (they neglected to mention that part) affiliate. They speculate about what the workout was, even though that information has been put into the public domain. I would like to hear Coach's Boyle's assessment as to how an ALL-NAVY WRESTLER could become floored by a workout PROVEN to be completed by children under the age of 10 with no ill effects. Maybe, and this is just one crazy guy talking, there were other factors involved. There are many risk factors associated with Rhabdo: dehydration, other pre- or post-workouts, alcohol intake, etc... Without knowing the whole story, it's pretty difficult to look at this case and make the judgment that a CrossFit workout is to blame.

I think it's a shame that these men are so blind to what our community is about that they feel the need to throw around utterly stupid and false quotes. For example, at 27:30, "Saying things like, 'If falling off the rings and breaking your neck bothers you, then we don't want you around the ranks of CrossFitters.'" I'd LOVE to see where Greg Glassman said this!

Did anyone else find it interesting that one of the guys said it was hard to teach someone to squat? At my Level 1 certification, I witnessed 55 people learn how to squat properly in oh, 5 minutes. Did we all need work afterwards? Absolutely, but in the amount of time it takes to run through a warm-up, we were given the tools to improve our squats on our own - working towards the virtuosity of movement that every CrossFitter strives for.

Hell, Michael Boyle himself didn't even know if CrossFit was Incorporated! Come on! Don't you think that as a trainer looking to ATTACK a competitor's (make no mistake, there is definitely major business competition here! A free site vs. a site that required $10 a month) method's and principals, that he should AT LEAST gather some background information?

Lastly, and most comically, at 45:27 on the podcast, they actually said that CrossFitters are "like a bunch of ADD kids" that "don't want to gain mastery of anything" that AREN'T GETTING FIT. Neil, you'd BETTER challenge Michael Boyle to step up and bring some of his top athletes to compete against our firebreathers. I think that's the only way that these guys will at least garner a semblance of respect for the capability of the CrossFit system. Well, they still probably won't since Greg and Lauren don't charge for this stuff, so obviously it has to be false. :rolleyes

- Alex
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:15 PM   #114
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
I think it's a shame that these men are so blind to what our community is about that they feel the need to throw around utterly stupid and false quotes. For example, at 27:30, "Saying things like, 'If falling off the rings and breaking your neck bothers you, then we don't want you around the ranks of CrossFitters.'" I'd LOVE to see where Greg Glassman said this!
(w/f/s)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/fa...22Fitness.html

But for Mr. Glassman, dismissals of his extreme workouts merely help him weed out people he considers weak-willed. "If you find the notion of falling off the rings and breaking your neck so foreign to you, then we don't want you in our ranks," he said.
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:56 PM   #115
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

He said it, but in context I believe he might've been implying that few results will be obtained if one is too risk averse. There is a chance I could drop dead of an MCI as I walk into the gym, there is also the chance that I could drop a heavy weight on my head neither one keeps me from working out, but I am aware of them and mitigate the risks.
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #116
Douglas Chapman
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

I think coach might mean this...

Check my avatar!

Last edited by Douglas Chapman : 09-27-2008 at 03:22 PM. Reason: I am an idiot...
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Old 09-27-2008, 05:57 PM   #117
Mark Reinke
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Alex,

Well thought out response. Thank you for getting this thread back on track! Mr. Boyle and Mr. Cook are both some pretty well educated individuals with regards to human movement. I've seen Gray Cook speak a few times, and the dude does a great job of making some of the most complex things, less confusing and easy to follow. This whole podcast did leave a bitter taste in my mouth. While these two are at the top of their game, they essentially leave the impression that they are not willing to understand and learn something that is not, fundamentally, all that different from what they preach. This, my friends, is a game killer in this business. I'll sit in on a Perform Better Summit just for the exposure to stuff that's out there. Some of the info passed on at these things have definitely helped with my coaching and personal development. The stuff that won't help, I won't use. But at least I have an understanding of it. We are all humans, and we were all programmed to move the same way. No matter how you look at it, CF, Mike Boyle, and Gray Cook are all different pages from the same book.
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:08 PM   #118
Herm Blancaflor
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

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Originally Posted by Tirzah Harper View Post
I will add that one of my favorite things about CF is its assumption that I have a perfectly good brain of my own AND the desire to use it....Please, don't set up a system of levels that will take away individual responsibility and put it back on the authority structure.
RIGHT ON...THANK YOU Tirzah!
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:04 AM   #119
Derek Maffett
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Is he saying that an athlete that can POWER clean 200+ lbs, doesn't have the technical ability or requisite strength and stability to safely clean and jerk 135-lbs?
30 times in two or three minutes? Form breakdown is almost impossible to prevent in a metcon with such highly technical lifts. Obviously the athletes have enough strength to get through it with lousy form, and I'm assuming that any good trainer would stop his clients before they hurt themselves, but those C&J's are going to be with really bad form regardless of how light the weight may seem.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:16 AM   #120
Alex Europa
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Re: The Gray Cook/Mike Boyle interview back on the community board please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewis Dunn View Post
(w/f/s)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/fa...22Fitness.html

But for Mr. Glassman, dismissals of his extreme workouts merely help him weed out people he considers weak-willed. "If you find the notion of falling off the rings and breaking your neck so foreign to you, then we don't want you in our ranks," he said.
Lewis, thank you, I sit corrected.

Time to go practice my muscle ups!
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