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Old 02-25-2008, 05:46 PM   #1
Barry Cooper
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A Dutch "Ice man"

Wim Hof, a Dutchman, breaks his own record by standing covered in ice for one hour, 12 minutes.

Links w/fs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgbVvelO-Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrB1TCoIbsw

While we're at it, I stumbled on this one too, which also is w/fs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6UTG...eature=related

I fully expect conventional scientists to be all over this, because it will give them the opportunity of learning something profoundly new.

Just kidding. He will be ignored. So will Hof. Why create work for yourself when you already just about have the mysteries of the universe wrapped up?
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:38 PM   #2
Barry Cooper
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

This w/fs video is good too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm-OL...eature=related

I've jumped in 35 degree water. I never would have contemplated swimming underwater and under ice in it, then getting out and doing yoga.

I will add that in my understanding the Tibetan term for monks of a certain rank is "sky clad ones", which signifies that they endure the Tibetan winters in very thin clothing which amounts to cotton bathrobes. What he is doing is not extraordinary by their standards.

Like most of these sorts of things, it's quite likely that what research has been done has been done by Russians and Chinese. I seem to recall Herbert Benson mentioning it in one of his Relaxation Response books, but that's about it.

One would think that his apparent defiance of our normal understandings of what is physiologically possible would generate profound scientific interest. Perhaps it is happening, but I doubt it. Scientists rarely investigate things for which they do not already have an explanatory paradigm.

It would be interesting to find out where a 72 minute stay in ice would compare to Bud/s immersion charts. Those guys are the toughest soldiers--sailors--we have, at least in that regard--and my suspicion is if the water is say 50 degrees, no more than 20 minutes or so is allowed, lest unregulated hypothermia set in.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:58 PM   #3
Aaron Shaffer
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

The ice stuff is amazing. I've read about the monks you mention and I believe that happens. Do you believe the boiling water one? I have hard time with that.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:16 PM   #4
Leah Turner
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

Thanks for sharing!
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:51 AM   #5
Brandon Oto
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
It would be interesting to find out where a 72 minute stay in ice would compare to Bud/s immersion charts. Those guys are the toughest soldiers--sailors--we have, at least in that regard--and my suspicion is if the water is say 50 degrees, no more than 20 minutes or so is allowed, lest unregulated hypothermia set in.
Bear in mind, of course, that cold water (being a liquid) will absorb heat much more readily than cold ice.
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:55 AM   #6
Barry Cooper
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

I have a mental category called "open". It means "possible, but not proven". It is precisely what mainstream scientists in this country seem to lack.

It is a historical fact that large steps forward in science happen with paradigm shifts, such as that of Einstein and the quantum physicists in the first half of this century.

Given this historical fact, it would seem more reasonable for scientists who want to make progress not to focus on the center, on developing progressively more detailed ideas within specific paradigms, but on the fringes. It is always some small anomaly that occasions the large scale swing, such as Mars Retrograde, or--in my understanding--the Michelson-Morley Experiment.

Anything that cannot be readily explained should occasion excitement. It should mark the potential for a large movement forward into undiscovered land. Yes, the movement would have the potential to undo large bodies of work which will have been shown to have been built on shaky foundations, which will topple in the course of the revolution. But the point is not the defense of work, but the creation of knowledge, and work which does not create or advance knowledge is wasted anyway, as flattering to the vanity of its exponents as it may be.

With respect to the boiling water, you all saw the same thing I did. The possibilities are that the phenomenon was real, that the camera was defective, or that the whole thing was a staged stunt. I don't personally know those people, but they seemed sincere, and I am assuming Ripley's did not falsify the credentials of the Anesthesiologist. It seems unlikely that the camera was defective, so as Sherlock Holmes said: "Once you have removed what is impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." We can't make quite that claim here, but that's the way I would bet.

Again, my experience discussing these sorts of things is that where skeptics can make ANY objection, however implausible, they will, and will insist that it is the only possible answer. Where objections end, you find silence, and the subject changed. I have seen this many, many times on other forums.

In my mind, as I have said before, genuine skepticism is manifested in empirically minded curiosity without preconceptions. We must be skeptical both of what is new AND of what we "know".

My suspicion is that one could calculate the amount of energy needed to thermoregulate a body to maintain 98.6 degrees in a condition of being in close proximity to ice in the temperature range of say 25 degrees, for 72 minutes. As a system, my shaky physics tells me that equilibrium will be sought, in which heat flows from him to the ice at a fixed rate. We can then calculate the total caloric expenditure. My guess is it would exceed the amount of body fat he had on him, and that moreover it would exceed known rates of caloric expenditure in a human body.

I will note that no scientists were consulted, other than standby EMT's, presumably needed to get the permit, and no scientists were recorded as expressing an interest in what he does. The only discussion I could find on the process on YouTube was in Russian (presumably w/fs--I don't speak Russian, or whatever they are speaking):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zBNHGWMju0

Minus 18 Celsius is about 0 in Fahrenheit.

The Tibetan word is apparently Tumo, or T'ummo, or G'tummo. Something like that.
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:01 AM   #7
Aaron Trent
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post

Just kidding. He will be ignored. So will Hof. Why create work for yourself when you already just about have the mysteries of the universe wrapped up?
I love the vanity that permeates the scientific community!
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:02 AM   #8
Edward Hope
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

While i have great respect for those people out there who are pushing their limits i have to say that the videos linked here are not earth-shattering. I have come close to posting twice and stopped myself as this thread, to me, is so close to being a troll.

For me, the most impressive part of the ice man videos is his yoga skills. The standing in ice stunt, to me, is just that - a stunt. The entire set up leads you to believe that it is very dangerous and akin to standing in a blizzard or something. It isn't the same at all. The physics of the system are completely different.

Again, i have seen and have friends who have done qi gong stuff in the past. It _is_ an immensely interesting subject as a whole. The supernatural abilties claimed by some are not. I am trying to find a polite was of saying that the man is deluded if he sincerely believes what is stated. I am not doubting what was done on film, solely the assumptions that are made and stated as fact, as well as the conclusions drawn.

The same is true of the yogi-breathing. I wish i had that control over my abs, but i don't believe that it is a secret that will break any laws of physics. They're sitting on insulating surfaces, with covers over their shoulder, still air all around them... they aren't exactly in any danger of freezing.

Scientists do not ignore such things, but they are not of interest when they can be explained.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:20 AM   #9
Brandon Oto
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

"Scientists" are also not some collective hive mind sharing identical desires and proclivities.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:52 AM   #10
Barry Cooper
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Re: A Dutch "Ice man"

Who wants to explain something when we can replicate it? Does anyone doubt those skills would be of profound benefit to, for example, Navy divers in wetsuits, mountain climbers, and really any citizen who lives up North and has the chance, however small, of being caught in a blizzard?

Sitting here, what I see is an inability on the part of any mainstream Western scientists to explain or duplicate what he did, and I further see no efforts to duplicate or explain what he did.

Bottom line: it has pragmatic utility; every one of you knows perfectly well you can't do it; that you can't go to any of your professors and be given a reliable means by which to do it, much less convincingly explain it; and this fact is not being rectified by research in any institution of which I am aware.

Perhaps one of you can prove me wrong. Perhaps there IS a university somewhere dedicated to decoding the process of Tibetan Tantric Yoga in Western scientific terms. Please point me to that place. I might have an interest in participating in that process.
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