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Old 09-11-2007, 11:43 AM   #21
Becca Borawski
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

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Originally Posted by Lance Boggs View Post
I don't see any evidence that the UFC or Zuffa bribed the judges to make the decision they wanted. It was a bad call, but implying that the UFC somehow did something illegal without proof is kind of crazy
I didn't say that's what happened - I said that your statement did not support your argument. Plenty of sports have commissions and 'impartial' judging systems, that doesn't mean they are all without wrong-doing. Olympic fiasco still fresh in anyone's memory? It's quite possible that what happened in this fight was just really horrible judging. It's not impossible that it was something else.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:06 PM   #22
Jeremy Wellman
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

You know what sucks is that Hamill even gave Bisbing a chance by letting him up time after time when he could have turned him into a human pretzel at will. If there is a rematch, I'm sure it won't happen again. Props out to Hamill- promising MMA fighter, hope to see more of him in the future.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:20 PM   #23
Lance Boggs
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

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Originally Posted by Becca Borawski View Post
I didn't say that's what happened - I said that your statement did not support your argument. Plenty of sports have commissions and 'impartial' judging systems, that doesn't mean they are all without wrong-doing. Olympic fiasco still fresh in anyone's memory? It's quite possible that what happened in this fight was just really horrible judging. It's not impossible that it was something else.
I'm just commenting on the thread title and certain peoples judgements that somehow the UFC was the one that caused this to happen. If people have proof of this that is one thing, otherwise I don't think you can call it anything but bad judging.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:05 AM   #24
Celio Silva
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

Lance, hear Becca out...

"...It's quite possible that what happened in this fight was just really horrible judging. IT"S NOT IMPOSSIBLE that it was something else." [emphasis mine]


I think it's very naive to dismiss the ****uation as "...bad judging..." because of lack of "proof". The "proof" lies in the history of humanity and the history of sports: both are plagued w/ corruption.


Concrete "proof" (the type you're talking about) may never emerge, but is it really necessary?? Even if the judges were not paid out, it dosen't matter. Consider this:

1) Herb Dean standing up Gonzaga while he was engaging on destruction of the UFC new poster-boy Crocop.

2) BJM not standing up their poster-boy Randy and instead yelling at Tim to "...get out of there...".


These two fights combined illustrate the issue very well.

Were Herb Dean & BJM paid out? I doubt! But they know who they're working for and how to handle certain fights. So while they may not have gotten "paid" for their actions/judgements, they sure acted in a way as to further the best interest of their organization.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:20 AM   #25
Lance Boggs
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

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Originally Posted by Celio Silva View Post
Lance, hear Becca out...

"...It's quite possible that what happened in this fight was just really horrible judging. IT"S NOT IMPOSSIBLE that it was something else." [emphasis mine]


I think it's very naive to dismiss the ****uation as "...bad judging..." because of lack of "proof". The "proof" lies in the history of humanity and the history of sports: both are plagued w/ corruption.


Concrete "proof" (the type you're talking about) may never emerge, but is it really necessary?? Even if the judges were not paid out, it dosen't matter. Consider this:

1) Herb Dean standing up Gonzaga while he was engaging on destruction of the UFC new poster-boy Crocop.

2) BJM not standing up their poster-boy Randy and instead yelling at Tim to "...get out of there...".


These two fights combined illustrate the issue very well.

Were Herb Dean & BJM paid out? I doubt! But they know who they're working for and how to handle certain fights. So while they may not have gotten "paid" for their actions/judgements, they sure acted in a way as to further the best interest of their organization.
Herb Dean does a fair bit of goofy stuff IMO, but again I don't think the UFC conspired to have Mirko win by having Herb ordered to stand them up. They have more to lose if Herb ever got mad and went to the press with that story than they do from one fighter losing a match.

With Randy and Tim I agree they should not stand them back up. Randy had his back and was working for a rear naked the whole time. Tim was defending the submission attempt really well as he typically does. It made for a boring end to the round, but I still agree they should not stand them back up.

In the end none of us really know what happened. There have been several stories out about this now from different people on the problems with the 10 point scoring system. Honestly I wish they did a sudden death round or something instead of taking it to the judges, but I'm not in charge so dont' get to make these decisions.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:42 PM   #26
Celio Silva
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

I hear you man...

On Randy vs Tim I agree 100% w/ you . I would never wanna see a fighter who has back control be stood up, regardless. But hear me out...

The UFC business model is "hyper-machine" style, building fighters up to be big sellers, and then capitalizing on that as much as possible. This is the FOUNDATION of their organization. Anybody working for them or following them for long enough is well aware of that fact.

So if fans realize that, how much more lively is that concept among the UFC crew?! It's crystal-clear! It's a unwritten rule. It's the same as in other types of business: somethings go w/out saying. They are obvious and need not to be verbally & formally (or "informally") addressed.

Remember Hughes vs Charuto? Tito vs Belfort? There is NO doubt amongst fans who won those fights, but to which fighters were they given to?!

Tito vs Rashad was used to market & promote UFC 73, even though that card had TWO very promising & solid TITLE FIGHTS + Minotauro's debut!!! Why? Because Tito remains one of their biggest sellers and Rashad is known to the TUF crowd.

The UFC is toooooooooooooo businness oriented, at the expense of the quality and integrity of the sport, and anybody working for them must play by their rules, even if they are "unwritten".

The UFC is all about furthering their brand to maintain supremacy in a growing sport; they are not interested in doing what is best for the sport, unless that can be translated into what's best for them. Sounds familiar? It's corporate-style business, where there is little to no room for ethics. So whether you're a ref or a judge, you must play ball the way your team plays if you wanna prosper within that team, much like executives and associates must do in the corporate world. The only difference is that Herb Dean or Cecil Peoples don't wear a suit to work.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:56 PM   #27
Brandon Oto
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

There's a philosophical question here of whether more leeway should be given to fighters locked up on the ground. I know that Joe Rogan has advocated for this. But as Celio says, there's a straightforward business reason why pushing the excitement is more important, and frankly this is a less intrusive way of furthering it than some.
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:54 PM   #28
Gary Turner
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

Hi,

Just a couple of things.

Firstly, personal, Brandon I have friends in Leiden - a really pretty town and some nice bars to enjoy drinks in! You live in a lovely place.

Back on topic.

I suggest we back off on Mike, give the guy his dues - he gets out there and tries his best. And also, you can ignore 90% of what fighters say post fight, as a fighters recollection of a tough fight immediately after is tainted by adrenaline, being struck, and being knackered too! Its really common to think you took a right hook, but it was actually the left for example...perceptions always change when you look at the footage! Regardless of anything else, it was an entertaining fight and well done to both fighters.

An interesting thread appeared on one of the cagewarriors.com threads, where one of the judges gave his explanation of his scoring. One point is that under Pride scoring Mike would have lost, but under the rules for UFC he won, in his opinion, winning rounds 2 and 3 after losing round 1.

Just a couple of constructive questions - do you know the rules fully, and are you applying them to the scoring of the fight? Also, are you seeing the fine detail that the judges see?

I'm not saying one way or the other, staying on the fence, but just thought I'd raise the above.

Mind you, I'd rather trust the Cage Rage guys - just bought out by Gary Shaw but still in charge. Very rarely a wrong decision there...lol...and of course I'm headling the next show so will always give my support...

Later!

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Old 09-12-2007, 04:03 PM   #29
Gary Turner
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

Further, there's some interesting background on www.bisping.tv....seems like a bit of pressure after the fight before the interview...

Further info on www.matthamill.com too...

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Old 09-12-2007, 04:13 PM   #30
Brandon Oto
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Re: Shame On The Ufc!!!

Thanks Gary Just moved here from Santa Cruz, I'm here for a year at the university. You know any CrossFitters around here?
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