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Old 06-30-2006, 05:49 PM   #41
Michael Forge
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Agreed, Robert.

Lynne, I honestly don't think it even makes sense to try to reconcile a vegetarian and Paleo diet. Meat is just too integral to Paleo for it to make any sense. As for a vegetarian Zone, I've tried it, and I think it is possible, but it sure ain't any fun.
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Old 07-01-2006, 06:23 AM   #42
Marc Moffett
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I always learn a lot on this board. Michael, I did want to say that I have read some of your past posts on this subject and I have always thought you were an articulate and thoughtful apologist for your views. So even if my language was strong (morally repugnant), it wasn't intended to be belittling. In fact, the mere fact that someone is willing to take a stand for animal rights is IMO a solid indication of a strong moral character.

One further point for Doug. There is a good deal of debate concerning at what level in the taxonomic hierarchy sentience begins. Peter Singer in his seminal book "Animal Rights" thought that it was likely that clams and other lower invertebrates did not posses sentience. As I noted, James Rose, thinks this might go all the way to fish. You certainly might consider the possibility that shellfish and crustaceans don't really have the neurological wherewithall to counts as conscious beings. And even if they do have a budding consciousness, they might not have morally relevant types of mental states. Pain is morally relevant; proprioreception, not so clearly. In this event, eating clams and oysters would be no more morally objectionable than eating plants.

And, I hesitate to add, worms and insects might well fall in this category as well. In all honesty, I have been considering the paleo possibilities of the hordes of grasshoppers on my property. Anybody know what their DHA and EPA values are??:wink:
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Old 07-01-2006, 06:32 AM   #43
Marc Moffett
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Lynne, I wanted to add that I don't believe the discussion was off topic. (This is not meant to be antagonistic, just wanted to note it.) After all, if Doug had instead said that he has come to believe that meat is nutrionally detrimental and is there a vegetarian version of the paleozone, would you have regarded a discussion of his presupposition (i.e., that meat is nutritionally detrimental) as off topic? I know that ethics discussions can get heated and uncomfortable, but they are also really important.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:07 AM   #44
Larry Lindenman
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I always learn a lot from these types of discussions. I have only been exposed to the stereotypical muscle wasted vegetarian. I think it's important to hear Michael's views as a vegetarian athlete. I also believe it makes us carnivores justify our choices, when faced with pretty solid moral arguments against the meat industry. If we left out the low blows, I don't think Lynne would have ever jumped in...she's just doing her job. This thread has made me think about my choices. I don't eat all free range meat, that's about to change. I knew the health benefits, I didn't eat free range because of the price...free range meat supports more ethical farming practices, small price to pay. I still believe vegetarianism is inherently unhealthy and performance draining and should not be encouraged as a nutritional plan, but if someone is convinced eating meat is wrong (or can't eat meat due to religious reasons), they should have decent alternatives, Michael seems to be offering just that.
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Old 07-01-2006, 01:50 PM   #45
Robert Wolf
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Marc-
Good nutrient value in insects. Its interesting that most humans loose the ability to digest lactose as they age but no one looses the ability to digest the exoskeleton of insects. They likely made a significant contribution to our ancestors diets...yuck...
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Old 07-01-2006, 08:38 PM   #46
Michael Forge
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Marc, Rob, et al,

Hard to feel passionately about anything and not throw a few body blows when discussing/debating. I don't take any of it personally, and I'm glad to hear that you guys appear to take it in the challenging but respectful spirtit it's intended as well. Especially when you're so blatantly and obviously wrong (joking!).
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Old 07-02-2006, 02:55 PM   #47
Ben Jackson
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I have found that this type of discussion on a Cross Fit message board is about as pointless as discussing a topic relating to religion and Christianity. The majority of the people on this site are Paleo or Zone advocates who feel meat is a necessity. The majority of the people on this site also feel that we evolved or are descendants of an ape, fish, amoeba, or possibly even a flying spaghetti monster (as some will use to make fun of Christians and those of organized religion). I have posted questions regarding both topics of vegetarian diet and religion in the past and while some information was helpful, I actually came away with very contradicting information and no conclusive decisions. I was more confused than when I started.

Doug,

You will most likely NOT find the answers that you are looking for here. My best suggestion is to do a scholarly search through some medical journals and university studies. Still you may not be able to come to a decisive conclusion through the use of these other sites either. In searching for material like this, a person can find many opinions, study results, and research that somewhat or totally contradict each other. The decision is going to have to come from you and the choice that you feel most strongly about. I am working my way to a vegan diet and here is what I have found so far in my research in scholarly searches and university tests in regards to what vegan diets lack:

1) B-12 (supplement with a multivitamin at one time in the day and a B-12 supplement later in the day)

2) Vitamin D & Calcium (many soy milks are fortified as well as orange juices; take a supplemental vitamin and if you get adequate amounts of daily sun exposure your body will naturally produce vitamin D)

3) Omega-3 Fatty Acids (a good source is flax oil and finely ground flax seed)

Hope this helps. Good luck on your informational searches.
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