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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 07-09-2010, 03:38 PM   #61
Wayne Riddle
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
Again I gotta say the unweighted/strict pull-up as a "strength" move is really reaching IMO.
For the beginner it sure can help as an accessory exercise. As you advance then toss on a weight vest, hold a dumbbell between your legs, etc.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 03:44 PM   #62
Jeremy Galo
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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Again I gotta say the unweighted/strict pull-up as a "strength" move is really reaching IMO.
Can't say I agree with that. Especially for somebody who can barely get 1-5 deadhangs. Just my opinion.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:17 PM   #63
John Stone
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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et al
I think we're mainly on the same page. On some minor points I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 04:28 PM   #64
Aushion Chatman
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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For the beginner it sure can help as an accessory exercise. As you advance then toss on a weight vest, hold a dumbbell between your legs, etc.
Agree.

I'm speaking gymnastically as it is a basic level gymnastics exercise...i.e. for beginners...

We don't go around saying a bw back squat is necessarily very strong. To me the ability to perform a few dead hang pull-ups (guy or girl BTW) is very novice and I wouldn't consider it a strength movement...Obviously for some people just getting up out of bed is taxing so it's to varying degrees, but we have strength standards in barbell movements, the same should be true for gymnastics...The problem is not many use gymnastics for strength development. Most just use it for conditioning. Coach Sommer has provided some great STRENGTH gymnastic WODs over at gymnasticbodies...it is entirely possible to gain great strength through gymnastic movements...the pull-up however isn't going to get you there.
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Old 07-09-2010, 04:48 PM   #65
Brock Wilson
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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I don't disagree with that, if I understand your point correctly.

I just don't understand why, at the advanced levels of say a CF competition, training wheels (kipping) is still being used. It's no different than band assistance ... with band assistance I would be moving the same mass the same distance in a shorter time.

Are you seeing my point yet?
@ John: As previously stated (no offense if you didnt see it as this thread is getting long quickly) I think the lack of strict-specified pullups in things like Cf competition is because "strict" is hard to judge consistently. Point a to point b anyway possible as fast as possible is comparatively easier to accurately judge and proctor.
 
Old 07-09-2010, 05:07 PM   #66
Mauricio Leal
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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However, I don't consider kipping pullups "training wheels" as you put it. I think the reason you may feel that way, and maybe I'm wrong, is you value "strength" over "coordination." I think the reason you don't see it is because coordination is an important factor in Crossfit Methodology. We can always do "harder" things, but it depends on what you define as "harder."
This thread makes me think there are essentially two types of anti-kip people, and they:

1) Don't really understand power output and/or WCABTAMD

and/or

2) Heavily favor maximal strength over all other skills

As a result, I'm curious how many people in this thread who are strictly (heh) anti-kip (this doesn't apply to most of you, I know) actually still follow some sort of CF programming, or at least do actual CF metcons as part of their own programming. Say, one that occasionally asks for high rep pull-ups form time to time. If you do, how does it work out for you? If you don't, don't you think you maybe ought to try before getting into a debate over the kip's merit?
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Old 07-09-2010, 05:57 PM   #67
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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4) I believe you. The swinging form / agility / etc needed for MUs and the like make kips a good training tool. My question still stands -- why is it allowed for non-training purposes?
If you're looking at CF workouts, there *are* no "non-training" purposes. All workouts are training tools.

If you're looking at CF competitions, then the person writing the workout wanted to test more than just strength, such as the agility required to kip rapidly.

Katherine
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:08 PM   #68
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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There it is. I think that is the problem in a nutshell. Kipping is not doing more work faster, it is doing less work faster.

Kipping temporarily reduces the weight lifted by manipulating body momentum. This is a flat out refutal of your statement.
That is a flat out non-physical statement. Remember that the athlete is the one who generated the momentum in the first place, and that took work, too. By using momentum, he is allowing himself to work continuously. That might mean that he is generating less power at any given instant, but the work required to move over the bar doesn't change.

Work = force * distance
Work = mass * acceleration * distance

Mass (the athlete), acceleration (gravity), and distance (bottom to top) are all constants.

(Actually if we wanted to be picky, acceleration is the second derivative of distance with respect to time. It's still constant.)

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 07-09-2010 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Geekiness
 
Old 07-09-2010, 06:15 PM   #69
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

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As for all the malarkey about kipping taking explosive strength; kipping takes neither significant amounts of explosiveness nor strength, and the practical proof is seen every time some new / weak / skinny-fat / woman that can't do a single dhpu knocks out a set of kips.
Got video? I don't think this hypothetical person exists.

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Old 07-09-2010, 06:56 PM   #70
Eric Montgomery
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Re: What is the functionality of kipping

I've seen people do 5 or so kips and not have a deadhang down, but I seriously doubt the existence of this mythical person who can do a big set of kips but not a deadhang....or the superman who can only do 15 deadhangs but can do 100 kips.
 
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