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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 11-23-2010, 12:34 PM   #61
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
To me, since I haven't seen any scientific studies done, it sounds like opinion. I'm sure you could point out beginning lifters and how they progressed and Rip could do the same with his program while claiming linear progression is best for the beginner. Both relying on observation to reach their claim (which isn't always bad). I would like to see a study taking a group of people that have never lifted weights, divide them into how many groups you want, and run the groups through various programs You would have to control for age, sex, height, weight, etc., to rule out any of those factors. 20 doing SS, 20 doing WS, others doing something else, and major the % gains. Then you would have a starting point for saying which may be better then the other.
Wayne, the hard science related to training is fairly sparse and poorly done in my opinion.

What I can tell you is based upon personal experience and empirical observation.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 12:52 PM   #62
Ewen Roth
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
The thing I find ironic is that Westside really is simple. The primary difference is conjugate variety, training weaknesses, higher intensity training, and speed work. That is what makes it better. Learning it is no harder than a newbie learning CrossFit.
Lol at having to "learn" Crossfit. You just do what's on the main page or your box's whiteboard. I'm afraid your knowledge of and passion for strength training blinds you to the mindset and capabilities of 95% of the clueless noobs out there struggling in a globo gym.

And if two things are simple, but one is x+y+z and the other is x+y+z+a+b-d.f+e..., then maybe one is simpler than the other.

As for this:
Quote:
Sunday Dynamic Effort Bench

Dynamic Bench Press
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back


Monday Max Effort Squat/DL

Max Effort Exercise
Hamstrings
Low Back
Abs


Wednesday Max Effort Bench Press

Max Effort Exercise
Triceps
Shoulders
Lats/Upper Back


Friday Dynamic Squat/DL

Dynamic Squat
Hamstrings
Low Back
Abs
that's not a program, that's a can of worms.


The only reason I posted in this thread is that people were trying to prove a simple point by going on all sort of tangents. I don't really care how other people lift. It's all moot anyway, since nobody can even provide one example of a basic, anecdotal comparison between similar novice lifters doing WSB and SS.

 
Old 11-23-2010, 02:14 PM   #63
Hunter Molzen
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

Since someone went ahead and posted the EFS Westside Standard Template,

How do you feel about that as a launching point for starting westside chris?

I bought the Book of Methods but itll take me a while to get through that...



and also, I'm a little confused about using bands.


How do you use them if the squat rack/etc. doesn't have any pegs to hook them to?
 
Old 11-23-2010, 02:37 PM   #64
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
The thing I find ironic is that Westside really is simple. The primary difference is conjugate variety, training weaknesses, higher intensity training, and speed work. That is what makes it better. Learning it is no harder than a newbie learning CrossFit.
Hi Chris,

Not trying to be difficult, just offering feedback and exploring the possibility of switching programs for myself.

I think the perceived complexity comes from a couple places.

1. Exercises. I have been lifting weights for 15 years but I wasn't a powerlifter, gym rat, or trainer. Of the exercises you list I had never done..
Floor press
Board press
Press from pins
JM press
Tate press
Face pulls
Rack deadlift
Deficit deadlift
Zercher deadlift
Box squat
Bands/Chains
Glute-ham raise
Glute bridge
Standing hyper with band over neck
Reverse Hyper

That is somewhat of intimidating list of exercises for me much less a total newb. With each one comes a learning curve. I just tried Band and Box Squats last night for the first time after watching your video on hooking up the bands. It wasn't rocket science but it does take some work on my part to figure them out, see how to do them correctly, choose a weight to use, etc. and it was a bit weird. And nobody is around to make sure I'm doing them right but myself after watching some youtube videos. I used my bench as a box but otherwise I don't have a great variable height box to use.

2. If the idea is to work on weaknesses, how does a newb know what those weaknesses are? Or are you saying that it basically doesn't matter as long as you pick another thing and go with it? How do I know if I should Zercher Squat for instance. I've never done them before and I think the pain in the crook of my arm would be the limiting factor rather than my posterior chain or whatever, just like when a newb tries to back squat for the first time and complains that the bar hurts their back.

3. It seems that the possibility of working up to a one rep max on an exercise you have never done before is maybe:
a. more likely to cause an injury
b. more likely to achieve a failed lift which generally has been regarded as something to avoid.

Do you believe both of those statements to be unfounded?

4. And then I see just some general confusion about the wods that would go along with it. I know that sometimes a wod hits you harder than you expect. It will take some experience to know what types of wods are likely to leave you ok and which won't. It's not unforeseeable that you'll have a hard time getting your bench press the day after a workout with 200 pushups or whatever.

Last edited by Matt Haxmeier : 11-23-2010 at 02:56 PM.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 03:11 PM   #65
Thomas Green
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Jacob Israel Briskin View Post
You're right, this is actually a conversation that he's had with several people on this board before. Basically, people say "Westside is an advanced program", to which he replies "no, beginners can get strong using Westside, therefore Westside is the ideal program for everyone", to which people reply "that wasn't our point to begin with."
IC, haven't really been paying attention to all those threads.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:07 PM   #66
Wayne Riddle
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Daniel Lyell View Post
I understand the allure of the simplicity of SS - but it is that simplicity that the body quickly adapts to and consequently the gains slow. If their are no new stimuli, how much does your body have to adapt?
You change programs? Isn't that what SS says you do once you exit the beginner phase?
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:13 PM   #67
Wayne Riddle
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Wayne, the hard science related to training is fairly sparse and poorly done in my opinion.

What I can tell you is based upon personal experience and empirical observation.
I don't doubt you at all Chris, in both of your statement. That however is the crux of the issue. Rip will come back and say on his personal experience and observations that linear progression as outlined in SS is the best thing for a beginning lifter.

My opinion is that for the beginner both will get the job, it is what you want to do after that which will matter. I don't think anyone will agree, including Rip, that SS is a program for the intermediate or beyond lifter.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:13 PM   #68
Graeme Howland
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Thomas Green View Post
There's a reason why pretty much ALL NFL teams, respectable d1 football programs, and high school programs hire Louie as a consultant. Not to mention ALL the best powerlifters in the world are coached by him and many olympic lifters, olympic track runners, etc, use him as a strength coach and not Mark Rippetoe. Because he's the best, plain and simple.
All the best powerlifters? What about KK, Bolton, Magnussen, all the Russian guys, raw lifters in IPF etc? What olympic weightlifting champions has he worked with?

My argument, as discussed above, is when you have a complete newbie who is training on their own, they won't even understand the mechanics of the movements, how are they going to pick accessory movements/weights/reps when they can't even squat properly? The choice of picking up a copy of SS, reading it and practicing versus reading the book of methods and messing around with tons of stuff that shouldn't concern them is a pretty easy one to make.

With proper coaching it is another story, but most people doing SS do not have coaching.

Last edited by Graeme Howland : 11-23-2010 at 04:21 PM.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:26 PM   #69
Eric A. Brown
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
To me, since I haven't seen any scientific studies done, it sounds like opinion. I'm sure you could point out beginning lifters and how they progressed and Rip could do the same with his program while claiming linear progression is best for the beginner. Both relying on observation to reach their claim (which isn't always bad). I would like to see a study taking a group of people that have never lifted weights, divide them into how many groups you want, and run the groups through various programs You would have to control for age, sex, height, weight, etc., to rule out any of those factors. 20 doing SS, 20 doing WS, others doing something else, and major the % gains. Then you would have a starting point for saying which may be better then the other.
Hell, an absolute beginner will progress on just about anything. The first year or so it is, IMO, more about learning technique than anything else. Good technique, sufficient training stimulus, diet, and rest. Anyone can argue the details, but the specifics of what is best for the beginner are nearly impossible to determine.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 04:48 PM   #70
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
Lol at having to "learn" Crossfit. You just do what's on the main page or your box's whiteboard. I'm afraid your knowledge of and passion for strength training blinds you to the mindset and capabilities of 95% of the clueless noobs out there struggling in a globo gym.

And if two things are simple, but one is x+y+z and the other is x+y+z+a+b-d.f+e..., then maybe one is simpler than the other.

As for this:

that's not a program, that's a can of worms.


The only reason I posted in this thread is that people were trying to prove a simple point by going on all sort of tangents. I don't really care how other people lift. It's all moot anyway, since nobody can even provide one example of a basic, anecdotal comparison between similar novice lifters doing WSB and SS.


Do you honestly believe CrossFit is simple for the rote beginner?
 
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