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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 11-24-2010, 09:21 AM   #121
Thomas Green
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by James White View Post
Fair enough. Maybe it was my perception, I just sorta felt like the OP was defending his position when no defense was needed. I haven't seen much hate towards ANY of the big strength programs advocated here (Westside, SS, 5/3/1, Texas, etc.).
I don't think it's a question of hate, the issue is really that every week on here people are asking SS questions and posting SS logs. And any time something's brought up in the training or coaching forum, a typical response is "well Rip said this" or "Go read SS."

But Westside has been affiliated with CF and has been the official strength coaching program of CF for months now. Just trying to spread the word IMO and give people a broader background on strength training.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 10:01 AM   #122
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by James White View Post
I was interested in learning more about the program, but your apparent obsession with it (and multiple posts about the subject) makes me less interested. Just sayin'.
Tell you what, I am guessing I have a LOT more personal experience with training at all levels, consulting with professional strength athletes, and so on thus my position is likely better understood and investigated. Based upon what I have seen of your abilities, I think you might want to learn something about what I know. Then again, perhaps not. The choice is yours big boy.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 10:07 AM   #123
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Ewen Roth View Post
Another irrelevant tangent. We're talking about programming, not technique. You don't need to learn or understand anything in terms of programming if you want to do Crossfit. You can just follow the main page or show up at your box and see what's on the menu.

Although if you do want to talk about technique, then that's another reason SS is much simpler than WSB. Far fewer exercices to learn. Isn't simpler better for the untrained, coach-less, kid-in-a-globo novice?

The tennis analogy was also kind of amusing. However good Paul Annacone is or would be if he were to teach tennis to 6 year olds, his work with Roger Federer right now has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with how he would approach a beginner. Just because he can, as an individual coach, bring something to the table for players of either level doesn't mean he would teach them the same things in the same way, or that he would be a better teacher for that 6 year old kid.
And, no, kids don't show up at the Bollettieri Academy to learn how to hit a ball over the net.

Anyway, 10+ pages of
Ewen, your powers of logical induction and deduction astound. You have humbled me with your intelligence and wit. You win. Anyone with the incredible training results you have achieved must know everything there is to know about training individuals at all levels. I think you should keep doing whatever it is you do and perhaps you should ask Mr. Glassman if he would step down so that your amazing knowledge might be better spread throughout the CrossFit world.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 10:10 AM   #124
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
Arguments that follow the scientific method? You offer empirical evidence saying WS is the best for beginners, Rip offers empirical evidence saying SS is better. So there you go, it is a dead end argument unless someone does an actual controlled study to compare WS, SS, 5/3/1, etc. to see which one is "best" for a beginning weight lifter.

Right now your science reeks of the most recent one CF is pushing: We'll do a study of the people using our program to show our program is the best. Yeah, that is an unbiased way to look at the data...

You missed the point. SHOW ME an argument you are ok with for whatever training method YOU follow.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 10:13 AM   #125
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by James White View Post
Fair enough. Maybe it was my perception, I just sorta felt like the OP was defending his position when no defense was needed. I haven't seen much hate towards ANY of the big strength programs advocated here (Westside, SS, 5/3/1, Texas, etc.).

I am personally doing the 70s Big Strength & Conditioning 2.0 program and seeing good results so far (about 6 weeks in). I don't feel the need to defend it, though. I'm just doing it. To each their own.

I am PROMOTING a program I truly believe in based upon my personal results, the results of the biggest and strongest men in the world, and my years of experience in the field. I am not defending anything.

If you had knowledge that you knew for a fact could help others achieve their goals would it not be a moral imperative to share said knowledge with them even if they were not totally receptive?

That is why I do what I do here.

Hell, if I was smart I would be promoting the **** out of my supplement company, but alas, I am not that bright...
 
Old 11-24-2010, 10:43 AM   #126
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Thomas Green View Post
I don't think HQ really cares about it's trainers knowing the differences between these movements/strength programs.
If I were a trainer, I'd worry more about what my clients think than about what HQ thinks.

And I agree with Tamara. If I know more about strength training options than my coach (which I don't), why am I paying all that money?

Katherine
 
Old 11-24-2010, 11:52 AM   #127
Wayne Riddle
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
You missed the point. SHOW ME an argument you are ok with for whatever training method YOU follow.
Um, you are missing the point. I wasn't the one making the claims, you were. I just ask for the evidence to support the claims. That is how logical debate works. And if you had read I've stated that there is really no hard data out there, it mainly consists of observational evidence, which you can observations that contradict each other leaving you at an impasse as to which one is right.

Plus I did mention what type of evidence I would be okay with in such a study, probably a couple of pages back by now.

Chris, you are free to keep saying that WS is the best program for beginners and people like myself can keep saying "proof it". It is a beautiful thing.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 12:02 PM   #128
Mauricio Leal
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
Um, you are missing the point. I wasn't the one making the claims, you were. I just ask for the evidence to support the claims. That is how logical debate works. And if you had read I've stated that there is really no hard data out there, it mainly consists of observational evidence, which you can observations that contradict each other leaving you at an impasse as to which one is right.

Plus I did mention what type of evidence I would be okay with in such a study, probably a couple of pages back by now.

Chris, you are free to keep saying that WS is the best program for beginners and people like myself can keep saying "proof it". It is a beautiful thing.
An interesting perspective. And because the tests done to the scientific standard you are referring to will probably never be done in our lifetimes, where are we then? I'm reminded of a quote I read somewhere in reference to political independents:

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Being Independent means that someone else is always wrong and your own ideas will never be put to the test so you can say whatever you want.
Also, this (wfs).
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #129
Rene Forestier
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Been playing with adding strength to CrossFit for awhile, and have a little anecdotal stuff to add here. When I tried to add SS, probably four years ago, to CF it was a disaster. Rip could have told me that, and probably saved me a bunch of heartache.

I read Westside Book of Methods played around with the ideas there and had some success. Went to Louie's first seminar last December and have had great success. My first two lab rats, were my oldest boy and his training partner. Jake, 185#, just squatted 500, Connor, 160#'s just squatted 405. Significantly they were both able to make progress on their metcons. Jake's Fran moved from 4:00 to under 3:00 and Connor's from 2:30 to 2:14.

I started using Westside Methods affiliate wide in May. Everyone has seen significant gains, across the board. My favorite is a young lady whose deadlift was under 200 at the start and pulled 305 last month, at a bodyweight of 110. Runner up is a 65 year old that couldn't tie his shoes a year ago and pulled 375 last month.

On the subject of kids, we began using Westside methods in our teen lifting class last January. Some of my favorite successes were. A 17 year old who showed up at our gym with a back squat of 135 and a deadlift of 185. We returned him to his track team with a squat of 280 and a 355 dead. He won the high jump in the California State Meet with a 7 foot jump. Yes you can get explosive doing this stuff. We have a 14 year old, 175#, who pulled 400# and 390 x 3. Another 14 year old, 145#, who just pulled 300 tonight and has more in him. My middle boy who is 17 and 145#, just squatted 305 and pulled 385. He also power cleaned 230, snatched 175 and standing box jumped 54". The kids above can do all the "Girls" as rx'd.

We have had great success with the Westside Method, we keep getting stronger with out feeling beat up or worn out.
Thanks for writing that, Jeff! Your endorsement holds tonnes of weight.

I find it hard to believe that anyone needs convincing about Louis S's results, supplements or not/beginners or not.
 
Old 11-24-2010, 12:22 PM   #130
Wayne Riddle
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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An interesting perspective. And because the tests done to the scientific standard you are referring to will probably never be done in our lifetimes, where are we then?
Read through the comments I've made on this thread and you'll find I've said the same thing.

Regarding the XKCD cartoon, it is experimentation that gets to the heart of things, but what if experiments by different groups show different results (see above)?

Trying to determine "the best" program for a beginner in this area is probably a exercise in futility because as long as you keep putting more weight on the bar a beginner will tend to get better. One would have a better chance of showing an intermediate or advanced program is better then another as the gains there will be much tougher to make.
 
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