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Old 03-14-2010, 04:19 PM   #71
David Joseph Danaher
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Re: Saturated Fats

Trevor Shaw,

Is Darryl Shaw your long lost older brother?
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:21 PM   #72
Trevor Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

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Originally Posted by David Joseph Danaher View Post
Trevor Shaw,

Is Darryl Shaw your long lost older brother?
hahaha nah man, luck of the draw I guess.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:28 AM   #73
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

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I guess I'm curious why Darryl keeps pushing an argument that no one is debating.. No one is saying you are wrong bro, we are just saying that sat. fats aren't as bad as once thought and can be a part of a healthy diet.
I agree, saturated fats can be part of a healthy diet. A small part.


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Originally Posted by Trevor Shaw
To keep saying over and over again that the body can produce its own and saturated fats aren't essential is like beating a dead horse at this point. We all know that, and are not arguing. So yes please let it be the last time!
I'm sorry if you found my constant repetition of basic facts annoying but posts like this made it necessary -

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Another interesting fact, research has shown that saturated fat is actually essential in the diet to adequately convert a-linolenic acid to the elongated omega 3 fatty acids EPA and DHA which are essential for prostaglandin formation and visual function. (Gerster 1998)
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:53 AM   #74
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

Deleted. Double post.

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 03-15-2010 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:58 AM   #75
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

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Originally Posted by Trevor Shaw View Post
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Originally Posted by David Joseph Danaher View Post
Trevor Shaw,

Is Darryl Shaw your long lost older brother?
hahaha nah man, luck of the draw I guess.
The Clan Shaw is very old with an unbroken line that can be traced back to the ancient Earls of Fife so if you have Scottish ancestry it's quite possible that we're very very very distantly related. Who knows?

www.theclanshaw.org (wfs)
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:05 AM   #76
John Jaeckel
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Re: Saturated Fats

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post


If we're going to look at our diet from an evolUtionary perspective it's worth remembering that we evolved from a long line of mostly herbivorous primates and diet high in animal fats and protein is really something quite new for our species. It should come as no surprise therefore that populations that habitually eat plant base near vegetarian diets enjoy the greater health and longevity than those eating diets high in animal fats and protein.

Hunter-gatherer diets—a different perspective.
That's kind of a broad assumption. There's a very credible school of thought that our ancestors going back quite far at least a couple of million years— were at least omnivores: scavengers. Which is then a very short leap to hunting and gathering. Instead of eating what you find, eating what you can either find or kill.

Living on the plains of Africa among large predators, they were down the food chain, but not so far that they had to subsist on twigs and berries.

True, australopithecines (which if you saw in a zoo today would look a lot like small chimpanzees) were primarily herbivorous.

Homo Erectus (1.6 million years ago) hunted, cooked meat over fire, etc.

Somewhere in between, human evolution and physical development took a significant leap. Must have. How?

It's also worth remembering that arguably the two most significant evolutionary adaptations of human beings were the opposable thumb and the ability to walk (run) upright.

The first was most helpful in terms of climbing trees to avoid being eaten, as well as to eat things like eggs and insects (and yes, fruit).

The second, clearly helped in either escaping being eaten or running down something to be eaten (protein and animal fat, bub).

You are correct in citing greater longevity in certain populations— especially with a calorie restricted diet.

But in terms of physical development, the fossil record is also quite clear that with the advent of agriculture, human beings regressed in terms of average size.

And the role of fat in the development of the brain is also scientifically indisputable.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:00 AM   #77
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

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Originally Posted by David Joseph Danaher View Post
Darryl,

If what you have posted is true (there seems to be some hefty support from your citations), then it leads to this question: What are the best sources for EFAs and how much is needed on a daily basis?
There's no RDA for fats per se but adequate intakes (AI) of EFAs for adults have been established at 1.6g of n-3 per day for men and 1.1g of n-3 per day for women*. The AI of n-6 EFAs is 17g per day and 12g per day for men and women respectively. There is good evidence however that increasing n-3 EFA intakes to 3g per day either through dietary changes or the use of supplements may prove beneficial.

*Note: n-3 requirements are increased to 1.4g/d during pregnancy and 1.3g/d during lactation.

Quote:
I'm taking fish oil with high concentrations of EPA and DHA. But I doubt that's enough.
If you're taking a fish oil supplement already you're probably fine.

Quote:
So maybe I should lay off the butter, but what about other "good" fatty foods (nuts, avocado, olives, etc.) Are those bad in your book? What are the sources generally accepted
Good sources of healthy fats include oily fish, nuts, seeds, avocados, olives and olive oil. Generally speaking consumption of sources of saturated fats such as fatty meats, butter as well as sources of trans fats should be kept as low as possible while consuming a nutritionally adequate diet. That said if you choose lean cuts of meat and vary your protein sources by including more fish, poultry and legumes in your diet you'll be fine so there's no reason to get too neurotic about things.

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what are the upper/lower limits for their consumption?
The lower limit for fat consumption is ~20g of EFAs per day*. The upper limit will depend on your energy requirements.

*Note: I'm sure this is obvious to most of you already but it's worth pointing out that if you need to lose weight cutting your fat intake is an easy way to reduce your calorie consumption and will have no detrimental affect on health or performance as long as you're getting that critical 20g/d of EFAs.

Now, as I said previously in this thread you shouldn't listen to anything I or any other random a**hole on the interweb tells you I suggest you do a little reading - Link* (wfs)

*Note: You can read the whole thing free online if you want. It is quite dull though.

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P.S. Are you a supporter of United or City?
Niether. I've never realy seen the point in watching football or any other spectator sport. I'm mean where's the fun in sitting on your *** watching other people exercise?
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:55 AM   #78
David Joseph Danaher
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Re: Saturated Fats

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I've never realy seen the point in watching football or any other spectator sport. I'm mean where's the fun in sitting on your *** watching other people exercise?
Shame shame. I'm a yank who studied in London for a short time and fell in love with the premier league. I had already played football a bunch, so it wasn't as if it was my first exposure, but the English spirit for it really won me over. Course, I stayed on Fulham Broadway about < 1k from Stamford Bridge, so I tend to watch matches in my Chelsea top.
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:29 AM   #79
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Saturated Fats

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Originally Posted by John Jaeckel View Post
That's kind of a broad assumption. There's a very credible school of thought that our ancestors going back quite far at least a couple of million years— were at least omnivores: scavengers. Which is then a very short leap to hunting and gathering. Instead of eating what you find, eating what you can either find or kill.

Living on the plains of Africa among large predators, they were down the food chain, but not so far that they had to subsist on twigs and berries.

True, australopithecines (which if you saw in a zoo today would look a lot like small chimpanzees) were primarily herbivorous.

Homo Erectus (1.6 million years ago) hunted, cooked meat over fire, etc.

Somewhere in between, human evolution and physical development took a significant leap. Must have. How?

It's also worth remembering that arguably the two most significant evolutionary adaptations of human beings were the opposable thumb and the ability to walk (run) upright.

The first was most helpful in terms of climbing trees to avoid being eaten, as well as to eat things like eggs and insects (and yes, fruit).

The second, clearly helped in either escaping being eaten or running down something to be eaten (protein and animal fat, bub).

You are correct in citing greater longevity in certain populations— especially with a calorie restricted diet.

But in terms of physical development, the fossil record is also quite clear that with the advent of agriculture, human beings regressed in terms of average size.

And the role of fat in the development of the brain is also scientifically indisputable.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying but I think you're missing something important.....

I'm sure you're familiar with the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis so you know that essentially we got smarter and became more human as our guts shrank and our brains grew larger. The long held explanation for this was that our ancestors moved away from an omnivorous but mostly herbivorous primate diet and started hunting and eating more meat and fats thereby increasing the energy density of the diet which reduced the need for such a large gut and allowed for expansion of our brains.

The problem with this theory is that chimpanzees and bonobos are also omnivores and have no difficulty hunting and killing to get all the meat they want too. If the "Man the Hunter" theory were true therefore chimpanzees and bonobos should have gotten at least a little bit smarter over the past six million or so years too, yet they haven't. So, if eating meat doesn't make you smarter what did our ancestors do that made us different from chimpanzees and bonobos?

It turns out that there's another far more plausible explanation that fits neatly with the expensive tissue hypothesis and that is that while meat did play an important role in our evolution (link) it was moving from a diet based on ripe fruits and piths typical of chimpanzees and bonobos to a diet rich an starchy roots and tubers (link) that played the key role in our evolution. These starchy vegetables are lower in fibre than fruits and piths and so have a higher energy density reducing the need for such a large gut but critically they also provided something not found in meat; carbohydrates, the critical fuel needed for a rapidly expanding brain.

Jump ahead a few million years and add in a few genetic adaptations (link) to this new diet and we can now consider ourselves to be starch adapted primates. It should come as no surprise therefore that populations that traditionally eat plant based diets high in starchy carbohydrates enjoy far greater health and longevity than those that eat diets high in animal proteins and fat.

*All links wfs*

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 03-16-2010 at 06:50 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:15 AM   #80
Arturo Garcia
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Re: Saturated Fats

I had always thought our brains grew due to the meat. Now it's due to the starch? I love these threads.
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