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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-04-2014, 09:50 AM   #51
Stanley Walter
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Blair Robert Lowe View Post
Beginners and inexperienced lifters shouldn't be squatting 4-5 times a week anyways nor have I ever heard of it really.
That was what my original point was about. I would never squat more than 2x per week. Once for 1RM work, once for light/high rep work.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:54 AM   #52
Stanley Walter
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Brendan McNamar View Post
I would see this all the time in athletes new to weight lifting. Especially women. We (myself and my coaches) would have to explain until we were blue in the face to our female members not to use a scale to measure positive changes in body composition. Use tape measure, pictures and how your clothing fits.

Our new members would regularly see deceases in body fat and increases in lean muscle mass.

I expect this is possible in untrained and novice lifters. Intermediate and advanced lifters have developed to a point where muscle gain and fat lose simultaneously is very difficult or imposable.

As someone moves from untrained to advanced what works and how the body responds changes. This is why we can't simply pick 1 program/nutritional plan to follow our whole athletic career. What work in the beginning won't keep working.
Advanced lifters also have a hard time moving the squat from 500lbs from 525lbs. It takes a lot more time, effort and patience. But for most people in the beginning to experienced stage it is very possible to gain muscle mass and lose body fat at the same time.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:57 AM   #53
Dakota Base
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Re: how much is too much?

The math is pretty straight forward:

Intake > Utilization = gain, whether it's fat or muscle

Intake < Utilization = loss, again, whether it's fat or muscle

Intake ~ Utilization = stabilized mass

Where it gets hairy for some folks, but it's still really straight forward:

Gain muscle POUNDS, sustain fat POUNDS = loss in body fat %

Lose fat POUNDS, sustain muscle POUNDS = Loss in body fat %

The math is still simple.

So say I gain the theoretical max 1/2lb of muscle for 6wks. Starting at 185lbs and 10% fat. Fat mass = 18.5lbs, non-fat "lean mass" = 166.5lbs 3lbs up in lean mass = 169.5lbs, which is 1.8% up in lean mass.

FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, let's say you gain a proportionate amount of fat:

1) Scenario where fat % increase = lean mass % increase, in our scenario, 1.8%. So that's 1/3lb of of fat.

2) Scenario where fat % increase = dietary ratio of protein to fat, which could be 1:1 for a 30:30:60 fatrotein:carb diet, or 1:2 for a 20:40:40 diet. 1:1 would be option 1 above. 1:2 is probably more fitting, considering 'mass builder' diets tend to lean protein heavy, which would be 1/6lb of fat.

So +3lbs of lean mass, +1/6 to 1/3lb of fat...

Considering the accuracy of our measuring devices, most folks won't know if they are exactly 185.0lbs vs. 186 or 183lbs. So when you suddenly weigh 188.1666lbs, and your scale reads 188lbs, you tend to claim that you "gained muscle without gaining fat."

But then when you go do DEXA or Bod Pod float, the numbers on the page show that you're still at 10%. If you gain muscle and gain no fat, how would your body fat % sustain?

Fast forward that to 30lbs of lean gains - that's only 1.5 to 3lbs of fat, for 31.5 to 33lbs total gain, on a scale that might not even measure to within +/- 2lbs, and in a mindset of a person that wants to claim every pound he gains is muscle...

Let's consider something else: What if your body contains a surplus of fat already? When a guy starts out at 30% fat, he can burn fat to build muscle. Just because a process works for someone that lived on their couch for 10yrs, it doesn't mean it's more efficient than Bulking and Burning for a properly developed athlete.

There are a few venerable truths that have been well proven:

1) The overwhelming majority of people that are successful at gaining muscle AND burning fat do so in a multiphase process, NOT simultaneously.

2) The EFFICIENCY of multiphase (bulk then burn) muscle gain/fat loss is much greater than that of programs that try to do both at the same time.

3) The accuracy of our measurement tools is too poor to make exacting claims about relative gains.

4) There are a lot of snake oil salesmen that use pseudoscience to sell the idea that gaining muscle and burning fat is possible and more efficient.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:09 PM   #54
Larry Bruce
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
Hostile? Not at all. I sure thought your post came across as such but chalked it up to tone not being obvious via text.

I do not have any literature at my fingertips for why you cannot build muscle and lose fat at the same time but it is accepted as common knowledge among those much smarter than me who do this for a living. If it were not the case many people would be elated by that fact and I can assure you it would see quite a bit of press.
The fact is that the body is burning fat for energy - oxidizing TG - and turning over body and muscle protein constantly - and much more than that all at the same time. It's the ultimate multitasker. There isn't a master switch that turns one off and one on for the entire body - which is a good thing for homeostasis.

The question is whether it's possible to take advantage of this flexibility to change body composition? I feel it is. If ones energy balance fluctuates over the day (intra-day) from a period of surplus to deficit one will have the capacity to build muscle and oxidize stored body fat during each of those respective periods, providing the corresponding physical stimulus is there.

It isn't going to get as noticeable results as quickly as longer period cut-bulk cycles but it is a more sustainable eating pattern and fits better with most athletic activities.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:15 PM   #55
Dare Vodusek
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Re: how much is too much?

Are you talking about something like intermittent fasting?

I still think the answer lies in HGH. But fasting is suppose to increase HGH secretion...
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:57 PM   #56
Larry Bruce
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Are you talking about something like intermittent fasting?

I still think the answer lies in HGH. But fasting is suppose to increase HGH secretion...
Intermittent fasting is an extreme example, which I don't think really fits into the athletic lifestyle or is sustainable over the long-term.

I personally don't hold to the HGH hypothesis - HGH in the minute quantities that diet and exercise doesn't induces MPS and in general only increases other lean tissue mass like bone, skin and fascia.

What I'm referring to is simply eating lighter for part of the day during which time one burns predominantly body fat, and more heavily the other half of the day when one builds net new muscle (if resistance exercise stimulus has been provided). Typically training stimulus lasts 4-6 hours if not performed to failure. It's pretty much what most people end up doing naturally when doing PWO nutrition - yet not focusing on optimising timing during other parts of the day though.

It's not fasting but just eating lighter - but not light enough to drain your energy running no more than a 500 cal temporary deficit which will come out of fat stores largely.And then eating more than your maintenance around your workout up to a 500 caloric surplus - which while refilling fat stores will also replenish glycogen plus rebuild and build new muscle tissue as a result of the workout.

So over the course of one day you can eat at maintenance yet burn and build during different parts of the day, if you time your workouts to coincide. Again this is the theory - your individual mileage may vary.
I realize timing isn't the most important factor but it is one factor that can be used to your advantage as well.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:16 AM   #57
Chris Jones
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Re: how much is too much?

I tend to be more in Larry's camp as posted above. I eat lighter, smaller calorie meals during the day until pre-workout when i start my workout nutrition all the way through until the meal after my workout, which is my last meal of the day.
IE putting most of your calories for the day right around your workouts.

Also, i came in late to some of the discussion about how people can build more muscle while losing fat when on steroids of other anabolic agents. If you havent checked out the site T Nation, go look through it. Its a mostly bodybuilding site with a forum, and plenty of open discussion of steroids and other stuff that people are taking. From what i have read, steroids change the bodys mechanisms enough that it is possible to add lean muscle while still eating in a surplus and still losing fat. Dont crawl all over me though if thats not correct, i get confused when reading highly technical stuff about diet and dietary processes.
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:42 AM   #58
Stanley Walter
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Re: how much is too much?

The argument was that you can't do both at the same time. I have done both at the same time, as have many others.

There are a variety of ways to do it. All involve eating right and properly timed meals like Larry mentioned. A good diet isn't as simple as calories in/calories out, and muscle gain/fat loss isn't either.
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:46 AM   #59
Luke Sirakos
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Stanley Walter View Post
The argument was that you can't do both at the same time. I have done both at the same time, as have many others.

There are a variety of ways to do it. All involve eating right and properly timed meals like Larry mentioned. A good diet isn't as simple as calories in/calories out, and muscle gain/fat loss isn't either.
You should really go into business training others then. You could make a killing if you could get bodybuilders to gain muscle during their cut.
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:01 PM   #60
Stanley Walter
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Re: how much is too much?

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Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
You should really go into business training others then. You could make a killing if you could get bodybuilders to gain muscle during their cut.
I have already said that very advanced lifters will have a hard time efficiently cutting fat/building muscle at the same time. But most people aren't advanced lifters nor are they sitting at 10% body fat.
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