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Old 03-31-2004, 05:33 PM   #1
Roy
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When I first started the whole low carb cycling thing 4 months ago, I was amazed. However, in the last month and a half or so, my workouts have greatly suffered. I train often and hard, and realize that I need CARBS!!! Especially since I train twice a day. I found this article very helpful.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki5.htm


MOST of the negative side effects of carb restriction mentioned in this article apply to me. I mean, sure our ancestors from the (fill in the blank) timeframe who supposedly ate nothing but meat or wahtever didnt have the hardcore obesity rates, and other health problems we do today, but they also didnt have as much pollution, trans fats, artificial sweeteners, miracle medications "Flu shots", etc., etc. I think diet is only one tiny portion of america's problems.

Anyways, I wanna try the athletes zone plan. I already know about the zone, but could someone tell me the protein/carb/fat blocks per athlete zone meal for a 150 lbs of LBM at around 4-5% BF???

This low carb thing has made my sparring and other performances absolutely suffer. Any serious athletes experience the similar?

Cheers

Roy

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Old 03-31-2004, 08:42 PM   #2
Mike Minium
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Roy,

For elite athletes, Sears recommends 1 gram of protein per pound of LBM. So for you, that would be 150 grams per day of protein.

Since there are 7 grams of protein per block (for protein), this means you'll be shooting for ~21 (21.42 to be exact) blocks of protein (P) per day. Your carb blocks want to equal your protein blocks, so you'll need 21 carb (C) blocks.

For fat (F) blocks, you'll want to have 2x-3x the amount of fat blocks (this is the most common range I've seen posted here).

So your daily intake would look something like this:

Breakfast: 5P, 5C, 10F
Lunch: 5P, 5C, 10F
Snack: 3P, 3C, 6F
Dinner: 5P, 5C, 10F
Snack: 3P, 3C, 6F

Totals: 21P, 21C, 42F

There are, of course, endless variations to how you can tweak your ratios. Maybe you go as high as 6 blocks of P/C per meal and reduce your snacks to 2 blocks of P/C. Or you can eat .75 C blocks for every 1 P block (this is the ratio Robb follows, I believe--I'm right around that range, too).

Hope this helps. Ask away if you need more info.

Mike
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:11 AM   #3
Paul Kayley
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Roy, posted in relation to this on 'reintroducing carbs' post. I think that carbs should be seperated into two categories... starches and non-starch fruit'n'veg. I am experimenting at the moment with a system of eating only lean proteins and vegetables, or fruit during the day; with a starch'n'whey reload after training to restock muscle glycogen; then eating good fats later in the evening. Basically, I'm seperating fats from all foods and taking them pm.

Most of my training is done a.m. or mid-afternoon. I am also keeping a written record and doing what everyone seems to advise against... counting calories in & out. This way I can slowly learn what volumes of each food group have the desired effects... was experiencing inconsistent results guessing!
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:59 AM   #4
Roy
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So, why is it that we need more fat in the athletes zone? and is the main number here seven?(i.e. 7 grams of carbs per block, 7 grams of fat per block?)

What does the regular zone look like?

BTW, with my training, it is a 1.5 mile jog as soon as i get up, crossfit, or other strength/power related workout at wound 4:15pm, and TaeKwonDo sparring at 7:30 pm, or just regular conditioning at 6:30pm.

Cheers

Roy
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Old 04-01-2004, 07:23 AM   #5
Paul Kayley
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Roy, Barry Sears argues that athletes need more fat as they have greater energy requirements. But I would have thought that athletes also require more carbs for glycogen resynthesis, and a little more protein to recycle... so if I were to follow the Zone I'd aim to balance carbs and protein intake in relation to exercise volume and intensity, while regulating fat intake in relation to current bf% (ensuring that EFA requirements are always met). Why hasn't he recommended more meals in place of the snacks for athletes, rather than adding fat? Personally I find that fats combined with carbs in almost any ratio is a bad idea for me.

Have you considered sticking with your current regime and just adding some starch'n'whey to your recovery meal while your glycogen window is open, and perhaps eating some more fruit?
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Old 04-01-2004, 09:26 AM   #6
Ryan Shanks
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Here's my question: I'm about the same as Roy. I'm looking for an alternative of drinking so much olive oil and eating peanuts.

What's the harm of adding extra protein and carb blocks?
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Old 04-01-2004, 10:53 AM   #7
Mike Minium
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Roy,

The blocks are as follows:

1 block P = 7g
1 block C = 9g
1 block F = 1.5g

The only difference between the Zone and the Athlete's Zone is the increase in F blocks relative to P- and C blocks.

If you haven't done so already, I'd suggest reading The OmegaRx Zone or Mastering the Zone. They're invaluable resources and can be found at the library.

As I attempted to point out in my initial post, based on what I've read here (and based on my own implementation of Athlete's Zone), there are numerous permutations of the Athlete's Zone. I'd suggest starting with a basic plan like I've outlined above (doesn't have to be exactly like it, though) and tweaking it according to performance, mental focus, and all the other tangible and intangible effects that can be observed related to one's diet.

I don't personally do the snack thing. I currently do 4 meals (I'd do more meals of a smaller size if my schedule allowed it) of 5 P/C and 10-15 F. This is what works for me currently, based on trial and error. I also employ the IF every 3-4 days (12:00 p.m. to 12:00 p.m.).

Ryan,

The harm of adding too many extra P- and C blocks is that you can throw your insulin/glucagon balance out of whack. I think you have to be a tad more specific and let us know exactly how many additional P- anc C blocks, the frequency of adding said blocks, etc. Experiment, tweak, experiment: that's the best advice I can give as it relates to diet (take that advice for whatever it's worth).

Also, I think I'd puke if I had to drink olive oil by itself (I'm quite certain I would). But is adding a tablespoon or two here and there over veggies and/or meat all that difficult? Perhaps it will take some time to get used to, but I've found that I hardly notice the two tablespoons of olive oil I add to my meals.

My two cents,

Mike
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Old 04-01-2004, 11:25 AM   #8
Robert Wolf
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Paul-

I think what you are doing is vital to make an educated decision about if a protocol is working or not. Keith Thomas does a similar thing here:
http://www.evfit.com/intake.htm

Excellent site BTW

This is much of the power of the zone in thatone has a baseline from which to measure progress in a real, non-subjective way.

Roy-

I had the same issues you are describing. If my activity level was lower I recovered fine. As my activity level increased my carb loads increased but the rebound from these huge feedings sucked!
Robb
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Old 04-01-2004, 12:34 PM   #9
Ryan Shanks
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Mike:

I was asking in general. I'm going to be trying to put on some weight over the next month and want to know the best way to do it. I was thinking of maybe adding 2 extra P/C block to each meal, so eating 8-8-8 or something. If that's going to throw my levels off, then I won't. I was kinda thinking that it would be ok, since I can eat 5 block, or 6 block and feel basically the same.

I was putting a 1/4 cup of olive oil in my protein shakes, no complaints. The trick is to buy the stuff that's extra light tasting. It made the shakes taste better actually.
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Old 04-01-2004, 07:15 PM   #10
Mike Minium
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Ryan,

From what Faigin (NHE) and others have said, I'd avoid ingesting more than 50 grams of protein in one sitting (due to the effects this can have on one's insulin). I'm basing this both on what's been written and my own personal experience (AKA biases). For me, my protein sweet spot is betwen 30 and 40 grams per meal. Anything above that and I feel lethargic and have a hard time eating multiple meals.

8 blocks seems like a lot to me (~55g), but if you can stomach it and (more importantly) you don't feel sluggish and you're still able to get in more meals, then perhaps it's worth a shot. Maybe try it on an intermittent basis.

Have you given any thought to keeping the P/C blocks in a range between 5 and 6 but doubling up on fat blocks (instead of the 8-8-8 scenario you mention above)? It might be worth a shot.

Also, what Paul wrote in the other thread is helpful, too, if you haven't already read it.

Hope this helps,


Mike
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