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Old 01-20-2011, 04:17 PM   #1
Om Puri
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PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

I get why we should endeavour to eat more meat, veg, fruit, nuts & seeds. But what about milk & legumes? They're great sources of protein, vitamins & minerals & fibre.

I don't buy the argument that legumes & beans have lectins which are harmful to humans when raw because guess what, some things have changed since the stone age, we can make fire! Cooked beans & legumes don't contain enough lectins to harm us. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia, the Middle East & Africa have been eating beans & legumes for long while without any of the side effects Rob Wolf & company claim lectins may have.

And the argument against milk as we're the only species that drinks another species' milk is also egregious to me. According to that logic we're the only species that cooks our food (so we should only eat raw food?!), we're the only species that drives cars, uses computers, etc., the list is endless, should we stop doing all these things simply because Palaeolithic man did not or any other species does not? It seems many cultures have adapted to cow/buffalo/goat milk over time (although I think raw milk is better for digestion). And the benefits of cultures found in yogurt are plenty.

Also the implication that beans & rice are "3rd world proteins/foods" seems self-righteous. A little brown rice every now then, some sweet potatoes here and there, a glass of milk (preferably raw), and some beans & legumes can only help a healthy diet.

I've read some of Rob Wolf's theories (as I agree with some of his diet which keeps blood sugar/insulin levels very low) and have ordered his book to get more in depth.

I welcome your thoughts. Thanks.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:36 PM   #2
Colin McLafferty
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

Agreed with the whole "we're the only species" milk thing. I disagree about brown rice and sweet potatoes. "now and again" "here and there" OK, but realize that when you eat those things now and again your blood sugar will go up no matter how sparingly you normally eat them. As I understand it, brown rice is glucose just as white rice is but is just slightly lower on the glycemic index.

I don't know much about legumes. Beans don't have the same amino acid profile as straight up meat and they also are carb-rich.

Milk has sugar, so there you go again with the insulin response. I drink a lot of milk because of the protein and hormonal reactions and because I do strength training. Still, if you're talking perfect diet then those things don't really fit in. Out of the things in your original post, I'd say milk is definitely more beneficial to performance than rice and or beans.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:42 PM   #3
Brook Ferguson
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

Quote:
But what about milk & legumes? They're great sources of protein, vitamins & minerals & fibre.

I don't buy the argument that legumes & beans have lectins which are harmful to humans when raw because guess what, some things have changed since the stone age, we can make fire! Cooked beans & legumes don't contain enough lectins to harm us. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia, the Middle East & Africa have been eating beans & legumes for long while without any of the side effects Rob Wolf & company claim lectins may have.
cooking makes them eddible and taste good. thats awesome.

however when you eat them, and they get to your stomach and they get broken down to the same properties when they were uncooked. ie, they are not good for you.

this causes leaky gut and has numerous effects in lots of people. for some people it effects them worse than others.

regarding milk. you would have to ask yourself: why am i drinking it? cause it tastes good? i actually really miss milk, as i love the taste of it. however there is no real reason to drink it unless you are in a mass gain phase.

in saying that too, raw milk is way better than the stuff you would find down the shop, but very hard to get because law stating that milk must be pastureised.

sweet potatoes are good, brown rice not so bad.

beans and any kind of legume stay away. drink the milk if you want to mass gain. otherwise there is no need for that stuff.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:51 PM   #4
Rene Forestier
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

You may enjoy reading this article published by Weston Price Foundation (wfs) http://www.westonaprice.org/food-fea...bite-back.html
It describes better the anti-nutrient issue...its more than just lectins. They (WAPF) are a bit more moderate. They feel that grains and legumes can be eaten in moderate/sparing amounts as long as they are prepared properly to mitigate the effects of the anti-nutrients. They do also acknowledge that some people are better off avoiding them, though.

Robb W. doesn't really argue the "no other adult species drinks milk" point. Milk has a pretty profound insulin response. Again, WAPF feels that milk products should be unpasteurized and that it is part of a healthy diet...but that some people should avoid it, as well.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:55 PM   #5
Eric Montgomery
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

It's no coincidence that plenty of people see autoimmune problems disappear when they cut out milk, grains, and legumes, then have them flare back up again as soon as they reintroduce them. Different foods have different effects on different people, and the only way you can really tell if they affect you is to cut them out for a while then reintroduce them and see how your body reacts. Dairy tends to have negative effects on the digestive and respiratory systems of people who don't tolerate it well.

As for peanuts, consider this blog post (WFS)
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:58 PM   #6
Wayne Riddle
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

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Originally Posted by Om Puri View Post
I don't buy the argument that legumes & beans have lectins which are harmful to humans when raw because guess what, some things have changed since the stone age, we can make fire! Cooked beans & legumes don't contain enough lectins to harm us.
Great, eat them. Who is stopping you?

Quote:
And the argument against milk as we're the only species that drinks another species' milk is also egregious to me.
Actually the argument is we are the only species that continues to drink milk well pass the child hood stage.


Quote:
I've read some of Rob Wolf's theories (as I agree with some of his diet which keeps blood sugar/insulin levels very low) and have ordered his book to get more in depth.

I welcome your thoughts. Thanks.
You need to read the book before you continue to make arguments the subject.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:10 PM   #7
Brian O'Laughlin
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

Enjoy Rob Wolf's book, it's very informative. And it's a scream.

As for lectins, alas, we're still largely hosed.

Eg: (from http://springerprotocols.com/Abstrac...9603-396-1:505 WFS )

Proteins/glycoproteins from plants, particularly lectins, are more resistant to heat denaturation than animal proteins ( 1 , 2 ). With legume seeds, whose lectin content is appreciable, this presents potentially serious problems in nutritional practice. Therefore, before they can be used safely, legume-based food/ feeds usually require thorough and expensive heat processing to inactivate antinutritive components. Indeed, dry or moist heating of seeds at 70°C for several h has little or no effect on their lectin activity ( Fig. 1 ) and treatment at much higher temperatures is needed to inactivate the biological and antinutritional effects of legume lectins ( 1 , 2 ). The safety aspect is even more serious with some monocot lectins, such as wheatgerm agglutinin or a number of oilseed lectins, such as peanut agglutinin and many others because they are extremely heat stable and normal cooking or other conventional heat treatments may fail to inactivate them ( 3 ) Thus, the best way to avoid potential harmful effects of these heat-resistant lectins is to limit their dietary intake to a minimum.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:05 PM   #8
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

Traditional preparation for legumes involves soaking in water which is then discarded. I don't know what that does for lectins, but it does give a very noticeable reduction in bloating, gas, and other digestive unpleasantness.

Katherine
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:51 PM   #9
Om Puri
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Traditional preparation for legumes involves soaking in water which is then discarded. I don't know what that does for lectins, but it does give a very noticeable reduction in bloating, gas, and other digestive unpleasantness.

Katherine
Yes, Katherine, this is how people in India (where I'm originally from) prepare legumes. In fact, that's how they prepare rice as well. There usually seems to be some wisdom in old traditions.

Thanks for the other responses, I look forward to looking into them all in detail.

I suspect for those of us around 15% body fat wanting to shed down to approx 10%, it's the ultra low glycemic levels of the Paleo diet are what make people get to 10% body fat. And since beans & legumes have low GI levels I would think that if lowering body fat levels was a goal, one could accomplish it by adopting a Paleo diet - without milk, but WITH some beans & legumes, and maybe some sweet potatoes PWO?

I mention this because I have gained strength & 20# BW in the past 6 months of doing 531/crossfit. I'm happy with my strength gains but I would now like to shed some body fat.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:03 AM   #10
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: PALEO, why u dissin' milk & legumes, dude?

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Originally Posted by Om Puri View Post
I suspect for those of us around 15% body fat wanting to shed down to approx 10%, it's the ultra low glycemic levels of the Paleo diet are what make people get to 10% body fat. And since beans & legumes have low GI levels I would think that if lowering body fat levels was a goal, one could accomplish it by adopting a Paleo diet - without milk, but WITH some beans & legumes, and maybe some sweet potatoes PWO?
Don't confuse GI and carbs. Legumes are low GI, but have plenty of carbs. So paleo or not, they're not a good choice if you're trying to limit carbs.

Katherine
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