How do the Paleo and Atkins diet differ? Are they bad for your liver?

Matthew Townsend · 07-08-2005, 04:48 PM

I was bending a friend's ear about the Paleo diet yesterday and his response was "That's the Atkins diet. People start to get liver problems after following that."

Is this true? Is the Paleo diet an Atkins diet? What of the criticism that it creates problems for your liver?

Anyone know anything about it?

How the Atkins diet works
The first two weeks of the Atkins diet is termed the "induction" period. During this time, dieters are permitted to eat no more than 20 grams of carbohydrates per day. This translates into a diet consisting of nearly unlimited meats, poultry, seafood, eggs, cheeses, oils, butter, margarine, bacon, and sausages. The 20 gram carb limit is generally derived from trace amounts of carbs in sauces, dressings, cheeses and a couple cups of lettuce greens or vegetables daily. During these two weeks, participants are not allowed to have any milk, fruits, grains, cereals, breads or "high glycemic index" vegetables such as potatoes, peas, corn and carrots. After the first two weeks, dieters can begin adding about 5 more grams of carbohydrates to their diet weekly. Generally, a diet consisting of no more than 40 to 90 grams of carbohydrates is what dieters must stick to long term, in the "maintenance" phase. Even this is a scant amount of carbohydrate compared to what health experts and major health organizations recommend.

Health Risks on Atkins
While many following the Atkins plan will never suffer any serious or major side effects, probably due to inability to adhere to the diet long term, a great many have suffered serious consequences. For one thing, we know that extremely high protein diets, like Atkins, can lead to acidic urine. Acidic urine leaches calcium from the body which significantly increases one's risk for osteoporosis and kidney stones. On the website atkinsdietalert.org, we learn about a man from Florida whose cholesterol shot up from 146 to 230 after two months following the Atkins plan; Rachel Huskey, just 16 years old, who collapsed and died due to electrolyte imbalances probably attributed to the Atkins plan; and a woman from California who experienced gall bladder disease and kidney stones (which is a common occurrence due to calcium loss) after just six months on the Atkins diet.

From: http://www.thedietchannel.com/atkins.htm

Christian Hansen · 07-08-2005, 05:04 PM

Is there anything other than anecdotal evidence of problems with Atkins? Bit of a he said she said then. I wonder if there is any evidence of liver problems or acidic urine with hunter gatherer tribes. One thing I can say about Paleo is that you need to eat a hell of a lot of greens IMHO.

Hone Watson · 07-08-2005, 08:30 PM

Paleo is not Aitkens.

Paleo is all about eating the whole natural foods that were eaten by our Paleo ancestors. The Paleo world was a natural world so organic produce and organic meat/wild game are preferable.

Fresh produce is highly emphasized in the Paleo diet. The Paleo diet has far more fibre, vitamins, phyto-nutrients, antioxidants, essential aminos, essential fatty acids , minerals etc than the Aitkens diet.

The Aitkens diet has all kinds of crap in it which is not Paleo. You can even buy Aitkens Meal Replacement bars and drinks. Foods like bacon and other salted processed meats simply didn't exist in Paleo times because salt was an incredibly rare and valuable resourse. You don't have to preserve meat by adding chemicals or salt. Margarine, vegetable oils, butter and hydronated fats didn't exist.

http://www.paleodiet.com/

Dan Silver · 07-08-2005, 08:58 PM

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/11692.jpg

VRS.

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/11693.gif

-D.

Robert Wolf · 07-09-2005, 11:20 AM

I do not know if a more elegant comparison/contrast of Atkins/Paleo can ever be articulated than that of our esteemed colleague, Dan Silver but I want to mention something here. Atkins clinical practice has a database of 30-40k patients who have been treated with their methods over the past 30 years. They have a good success rate and a mountain of data that no one is interested in because they feel the information is biased. Maybe it is, maybe it is not but it might be interesting for curiosities sake to see what they have.

I have a huge amount of respect for Atkins in that he stood his ground for 30 years and had his medical license taken away multiple times but never wavered in his message that was gained from EMPERICAL OBSERVATION. Atkis plight is quite similar in my mind to that of Louis Pasteur:
http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/A...s_Pasteur.html

who faced extreme ridicule for putting forth the suggestion that if physicians washed their hands between things like surgery and childbirths, disease transmission would decrease!

Was Atkins’ recommendations perfect? No, but then whose is? Although not perfect they were damned good and pointed in a direction that both made sense and more importantly worked.

The Atkins Nutritionals-Franken Foods is perhaps unfortunate but the basic message that could be obtained for free from the website or for a $5 book is looks good to me:
http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/2/10-121449.html

A few weeks ago someone posted that Atkins "almost put them in the hospital..." Sorry, but that is crap. Every time you hear this you can be guaranteed of a few things. the person has never READ and ATKINS book, the person has never done the program as recomended.

Robb

Dan Silver · 07-09-2005, 01:48 PM

Robb, I totally was gonna say that if the picture thing didn't work out.

-D.

Matthew Townsend · 07-09-2005, 04:33 PM

Okay, but is there something to be said by not going overboard on the protein?

I'm thinking that along with the requisite veges, fruit, nuts and seeds etc, if I have a couple of slices of ham for breakfast, fish for lunch and then chicken or steak for dinner then that's not going to hurt me.

Larry Lindenman · 07-10-2005, 05:50 AM

The protein kidney problem is crap, fed by doctors who have no clue about nutrition. They are taking data from kidney patients and extrapolating it to healthy individuals. There are no studies or data indicating 1-2 grams of protein per pound of LEAN BODY MASS has any negative effects on the kidneys! That's a lot of protein. To compare, the Zone puts you at under 1g/lb lean bosy mass. I'm getting about .83 grams per pound. You seem to be learning about nutrition and what is correct for you. I would suggest starting on the Zone and measuring all of your food. Get your carbs in, from mostly good sources. As you progress in the Zone, you could shift toward more paleo foods and reduce the amount of times you measure and weigh.

Ron Nelson · 07-11-2005, 01:02 PM

I, for one, am an example of the emperical evidence that following the Atkins plan works and can do so with no ill effects.
I went "all out Atkins" for about 4 months in 2003 and lost 45lbs. Had I followed CF back then, I would have seen a significant increase in lean body mass, but I was happy just losing the poundage and getting my waist to a svelte 34". As it stands now, I'm stronger, but thicker in the waist, so I'm thinking another round of the Atkins diet would be a good thing.
The reason I liked Atkins, didn't have to measure my food. Just eyeballed the portions and made sure I cut out the high GI carbs. No potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, and milk; voila, weight loss!

Zach Nikka · 07-11-2005, 02:59 PM

there is such a thing as "too much protein"....ive read in the Paleo book that if protein is not balanced correctly with other macronutrients it can cause protein toxicity, often referred to as rabbit starvation...in which the symptoms are nauseu,diarrhea, and abrupt weight loss

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07-08-2005, 04:48 PM	#1
Matthew Townsend Member Profile: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Melbourne Victoria Posts: 278	I was bending a friend's ear about the Paleo diet yesterday and his response was "That's the Atkins diet. People start to get liver problems after following that." Is this true? Is the Paleo diet an Atkins diet? What of the criticism that it creates problems for your liver? Anyone know anything about it? How the Atkins diet works The first two weeks of the Atkins diet is termed the "induction" period. During this time, dieters are permitted to eat no more than 20 grams of carbohydrates per day. This translates into a diet consisting of nearly unlimited meats, poultry, seafood, eggs, cheeses, oils, butter, margarine, bacon, and sausages. The 20 gram carb limit is generally derived from trace amounts of carbs in sauces, dressings, cheeses and a couple cups of lettuce greens or vegetables daily. During these two weeks, participants are not allowed to have any milk, fruits, grains, cereals, breads or "high glycemic index" vegetables such as potatoes, peas, corn and carrots. After the first two weeks, dieters can begin adding about 5 more grams of carbohydrates to their diet weekly. Generally, a diet consisting of no more than 40 to 90 grams of carbohydrates is what dieters must stick to long term, in the "maintenance" phase. Even this is a scant amount of carbohydrate compared to what health experts and major health organizations recommend. Health Risks on Atkins While many following the Atkins plan will never suffer any serious or major side effects, probably due to inability to adhere to the diet long term, a great many have suffered serious consequences. For one thing, we know that extremely high protein diets, like Atkins, can lead to acidic urine. Acidic urine leaches calcium from the body which significantly increases one's risk for osteoporosis and kidney stones. On the website atkinsdietalert.org, we learn about a man from Florida whose cholesterol shot up from 146 to 230 after two months following the Atkins plan; Rachel Huskey, just 16 years old, who collapsed and died due to electrolyte imbalances probably attributed to the Atkins plan; and a woman from California who experienced gall bladder disease and kidney stones (which is a common occurrence due to calcium loss) after just six months on the Atkins diet. From: http://www.thedietchannel.com/atkins.htm

07-08-2005, 05:04 PM	#2
Christian Hansen Member Profile: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Pasadena CA Posts: 146	Is there anything other than anecdotal evidence of problems with Atkins? Bit of a he said she said then. I wonder if there is any evidence of liver problems or acidic urine with hunter gatherer tribes. One thing I can say about Paleo is that you need to eat a hell of a lot of greens IMHO.

07-08-2005, 08:30 PM	#3
Hone Watson Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Auckland New Zealand Posts: 194	Paleo is not Aitkens. Paleo is all about eating the whole natural foods that were eaten by our Paleo ancestors. The Paleo world was a natural world so organic produce and organic meat/wild game are preferable. Fresh produce is highly emphasized in the Paleo diet. The Paleo diet has far more fibre, vitamins, phyto-nutrients, antioxidants, essential aminos, essential fatty acids , minerals etc than the Aitkens diet. The Aitkens diet has all kinds of crap in it which is not Paleo. You can even buy Aitkens Meal Replacement bars and drinks. Foods like bacon and other salted processed meats simply didn't exist in Paleo times because salt was an incredibly rare and valuable resourse. You don't have to preserve meat by adding chemicals or salt. Margarine, vegetable oils, butter and hydronated fats didn't exist. http://www.paleodiet.com/

07-08-2005, 08:58 PM	#4
Dan Silver Departed Profile: Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 533	http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/11692.jpg VRS. http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/11693.gif -D.

07-09-2005, 11:20 AM	#5
Robert Wolf Member Profile: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chico CA Posts: 2,669	I do not know if a more elegant comparison/contrast of Atkins/Paleo can ever be articulated than that of our esteemed colleague, Dan Silver but I want to mention something here. Atkins clinical practice has a database of 30-40k patients who have been treated with their methods over the past 30 years. They have a good success rate and a mountain of data that no one is interested in because they feel the information is biased. Maybe it is, maybe it is not but it might be interesting for curiosities sake to see what they have. I have a huge amount of respect for Atkins in that he stood his ground for 30 years and had his medical license taken away multiple times but never wavered in his message that was gained from EMPERICAL OBSERVATION. Atkis plight is quite similar in my mind to that of Louis Pasteur: http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/A...s_Pasteur.html who faced extreme ridicule for putting forth the suggestion that if physicians washed their hands between things like surgery and childbirths, disease transmission would decrease! Was Atkins’ recommendations perfect? No, but then whose is? Although not perfect they were damned good and pointed in a direction that both made sense and more importantly worked. The Atkins Nutritionals-Franken Foods is perhaps unfortunate but the basic message that could be obtained for free from the website or for a $5 book is looks good to me: http://atkins.com/Archive/2004/2/10-121449.html A few weeks ago someone posted that Atkins "almost put them in the hospital..." Sorry, but that is crap. Every time you hear this you can be guaranteed of a few things. the person has never READ and ATKINS book, the person has never done the program as recomended. Robb

07-09-2005, 01:48 PM	#6
Dan Silver Departed Profile: Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 533	Robb, I totally was gonna say that if the picture thing didn't work out. -D.

07-09-2005, 04:33 PM	#7
Matthew Townsend Member Profile: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Melbourne Victoria Posts: 278	Okay, but is there something to be said by not going overboard on the protein? I'm thinking that along with the requisite veges, fruit, nuts and seeds etc, if I have a couple of slices of ham for breakfast, fish for lunch and then chicken or steak for dinner then that's not going to hurt me.

07-10-2005, 05:50 AM	#8
Larry Lindenman Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Illinois Posts: 2,769	The protein kidney problem is crap, fed by doctors who have no clue about nutrition. They are taking data from kidney patients and extrapolating it to healthy individuals. There are no studies or data indicating 1-2 grams of protein per pound of LEAN BODY MASS has any negative effects on the kidneys! That's a lot of protein. To compare, the Zone puts you at under 1g/lb lean bosy mass. I'm getting about .83 grams per pound. You seem to be learning about nutrition and what is correct for you. I would suggest starting on the Zone and measuring all of your food. Get your carbs in, from mostly good sources. As you progress in the Zone, you could shift toward more paleo foods and reduce the amount of times you measure and weigh.

07-11-2005, 01:02 PM	#9
Ron Nelson Banned Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Anaheim CA Posts: 1,199	I, for one, am an example of the emperical evidence that following the Atkins plan works and can do so with no ill effects. I went "all out Atkins" for about 4 months in 2003 and lost 45lbs. Had I followed CF back then, I would have seen a significant increase in lean body mass, but I was happy just losing the poundage and getting my waist to a svelte 34". As it stands now, I'm stronger, but thicker in the waist, so I'm thinking another round of the Atkins diet would be a good thing. The reason I liked Atkins, didn't have to measure my food. Just eyeballed the portions and made sure I cut out the high GI carbs. No potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, and milk; voila, weight loss!

07-11-2005, 02:59 PM	#10
Zach Nikka Departed Profile: Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 84	there is such a thing as "too much protein"....ive read in the Paleo book that if protein is not balanced correctly with other macronutrients it can cause protein toxicity, often referred to as rabbit starvation...in which the symptoms are nauseu,diarrhea, and abrupt weight loss