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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 01-29-2014, 10:02 PM   #11
Robert Fabsik
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Re: CF and Steroids article

Don't have an accurate way to measure bodyfat but testing me from 15, 18 and 20% puts me just at or above 25 for FFMI.

So are their steroids in the water?

Maybe FFMI could be a measure if tested with a much broader population and you still struggle with some overlap between the correlation of athletes probably having higher test levels naturally.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:50 AM   #12
Mark Fowler
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Re: CF and Steroids article

I am of the opinion that clean people in sport like to think that more people are clean than juicing, it helps with the romanticism of their sport being pure.
Steroid users insinuate that more people are juicing than we realise, this helps them justify their own position and maybe clear a little of their guilt.

The reality? No one will ever know. At the end of the day, the only person you can really know the truth about is yourself.

My perspective? I know some world class strongmen who are clean and I know some low level local strongmen who are up to their eyeballs.
So I just crack on with my own training and stop worrying.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:54 AM   #13
Dale F. Saran
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Re: CF and Steroids article

This article is laughably bad. Anthony Roberts isn't in our Level I trainer database - my guess would be (giving him the benefit of the doubt) that he attended the pre-ANSI Level I. He doesn't know "more than most Crossfitters" [sic] about CrossFit. He doesn't even know how to capitalize the trademark, spell particularly well, and has publicly written (back in Sep. 2009) about his suspicions and speculation regarding why there was drug testing at the 2009 Games. (link mostly w/f/s)
http://www.zimbio.com/Steroids/artic...s+and+CrossFit
Which reads largely like a juicer, who sees "steroid use" everywhere he looks, because he understands no mentality different from his own about why people exercise. I guess Maslow was write about the mindset that "when all you have is a hammer..."

Roberts is off his rocker, though, and making things up. To wit, his claim that the reason for testing at the 2009 was because of "corporate sponsorship" is laughable. (Disclaimer, I wrote the drug testing policy that year; I think I'd remember.)

He claims some kind of community credibility, but he's not one of us. It's evident from the assumptions underlying almost everything he writes. For example, to support his claim that there is widespread use of steroids in CrossFit Affiliates, he uses this bit of incredible logic.

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Depending on which studies you read, typical gym-use of anabolic steroids hovers around 10-20%, with a high (in one Gym I’ve read about) of 90%. So why wouldn’t the numbers be equivalent – if not higher – for Crossfitters, who consider themselves much more “hardcore” than the average gym member…? Now don’t get me wrong, I like Crossfit and I like what they’re doing over there, but the notion that they are any more “clean” than other, similar, groups is myopic. And of course, I have nothing against anyone for using or not using anabolic steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. I’m simply trying to inject a little reality into the discussion. Get it? Inject? Ha!
His fundamental lack of understanding about the difference between a regular "gym" and a CrossFit Affiliate renders almost anything he says following that almost unreadable for me. That he doesn't understand the difference between a person who values their fitness at $9.95 /mo. and the person who pays for training at a CrossFit Affiliate may be all that one needs to know. But, if you want more, he shows how little he misapprehends what CrossFit even is when he talks about the reasoning of why we test, as well as his observation of why "gear" (as he and his ilk like to call it) is taboo in this community. It's fairly revealing that he doesn't get the deeper implications behind that taboo, especially for the Games.

I can't take it seriously. Sorry, this is a guy who juices for a living and the entire world he interacts with - his clients and customers - are the kind of people who want and need "gear." It's measurably shifted his perspective. I'm not naive and suggesting that there isn't use by some at the Games level - we know because some have been caught and DQ'd already. But his "mathematical" justification for it is an embarrassing attempt to pervert science to build credibility for his own warped worldview.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #14
Jeremy Schultz
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Re: CF and Steroids article

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Originally Posted by Andrew Bell View Post
Jeremy, the NFL was the same way at one time. Professional body building was the same way at one time. As much as I hate to do the same, it's time to take the rose colored glasses off.
Oh, I completely agree. I was just trying to say that maybe we should care if the top competitors are juiced, since, in theory, those are the people that many average Crossfitters aspire to be like.

I agree that this article is ridiculous and that are WAY too many variables that are just kinda guessed, for this article to be scientific in any way. But, at the same time, I think it's just burying our heads in the sand to assume that none of the top competitors are using.

Last edited by Jeremy Schultz : 01-30-2014 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 01-30-2014, 11:33 AM   #15
Christopher Morris
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Re: CF and Steroids article

IF we take the article at face value then there are two possible conclusions:

- top CrossFit athletes are using,

- CrossFitters have found a clean way to increase FFMI when compared to athletes from 50+ years ago.

I think it would be really interesting to have detailed food and workout logs from top athletes. Others could imitate their diet and workouts to see if they get similar results in their own body composition.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:06 PM   #16
Mark Boyle
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Re: CF and Steroids article

You don't need fancy analysis to know that a significant portion (likely the vast majority) of athletes at the top of any high profile sport are cheating.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:57 PM   #17
Richard Joy
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Re: CF and Steroids article

I have no confidence at all in their premise that a FFMI > 26 indicates steroid use. I did the calculations on myself and came out at 27.4. I've never used steroids or any other banned substance. I'm also not even a particularly good athlete. I'm just big.

Are some of the athletes in the games using? I figure that in the open there are plenty, in the regionals there are fewer, and in the finals there are almost none. That's certainly not an opinion based on science, but at least I'm willing to admt that. This article just grabs a statistic about the top ten male games finishers, and then asserts that that statistic strongly implies most of them use PEDs. The only "proof" they offer for their assertion is that a mostly unrelated population showed a different value for that particular statistic, and that that population can safely be said not to have used PEDs, because they weren't invented yet.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:17 PM   #18
Tighe Crovetti
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Re: CF and Steroids article

I played football, and when I entered my high school, it was pretty widely believed some guys juiced. The head coach was a towering guy, ex-powerlifting champ, and we had guys (remember, these boys were 17 and 18 years-old), just ripped, and benching and squatting huge numbers, and a few covered in acne...yeah......they were on it. But that's a mentality issue, it's the means to the desired end. Same thing, I imagine, with bodybuilding (I have no experience)...it is the end that is the point, the means is the after-thought.

My brief experience, the reason why I'd expect CF to not only NOT be "like any other sport," and definitely not worse than other sports, is: CrossFit seems like the emphasis is the MEANS, not the end. How hard your work is the point, not the number you put up. I definitely grew up thinking like a bodybuilder, you lifted to get bigger, you lifted to have nice biceps, or nice lats. It was kinda assumed or imagined that, well, if you have big biceps or a big back, then that must mean you're strong, but it's the order of thought that matters. You were lifting in order to achieve an effect to your body.

That's entirely different from: I workout because it's hard, because I like doing things I can't do, or doing things I can already do, but do them better or faster, and the real end game is, I just want to becoe more capable, to be able to move more weight, move my body, in different ways, more efficiently, faster. To take steroids, and take the short cut, and skip the work....just seems square in the face of the CrossFit mentality.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:23 PM   #19
Mark Boyle
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Re: CF and Steroids article

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Originally Posted by Tighe Crovetti View Post
I played football, and when I entered my high school, it was pretty widely believed some guys juiced. The head coach was a towering guy, ex-powerlifting champ, and we had guys (remember, these boys were 17 and 18 years-old), just ripped, and benching and squatting huge numbers, and a few covered in acne...yeah......they were on it. But that's a mentality issue, it's the means to the desired end. Same thing, I imagine, with bodybuilding (I have no experience)...it is the end that is the point, the means is the after-thought.

My brief experience, the reason why I'd expect CF to not only NOT be "like any other sport," and definitely not worse than other sports, is: CrossFit seems like the emphasis is the MEANS, not the end. How hard your work is the point, not the number you put up. I definitely grew up thinking like a bodybuilder, you lifted to get bigger, you lifted to have nice biceps, or nice lats. It was kinda assumed or imagined that, well, if you have big biceps or a big back, then that must mean you're strong, but it's the order of thought that matters. You were lifting in order to achieve an effect to your body.

That's entirely different from: I workout because it's hard, because I like doing things I can't do, or doing things I can already do, but do them better or faster, and the real end game is, I just want to becoe more capable, to be able to move more weight, move my body, in different ways, more efficiently, faster. To take steroids, and take the short cut, and skip the work....just seems square in the face of the CrossFit mentality.
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Old 01-30-2014, 01:36 PM   #20
Andrew Bell
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Re: CF and Steroids article

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Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
This article is laughably bad. Anthony Roberts isn't in our Level I trainer database - my guess would be (giving him the benefit of the doubt) that he attended the pre-ANSI Level I. He doesn't know "more than most Crossfitters" [sic] about CrossFit. He doesn't even know how to capitalize the trademark, spell particularly well,
Well let's be honest, he has 2 books published on steroids. That's more than you and I put together. To discredit his knowledge on the subject is silly. From my memory his Level 1 was before the ANSI Level I, but so are plenty of other coaches who still have boxes open with this as their only qualification. Again, we need to stop attempting to overlook his credentials. To mock him for his grammatical errors do not take away from the abstract of the article. You're a lawyer, you know this.

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Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
and has publicly written (back in Sep. 2009) about his suspicions and speculation regarding why there was drug testing at the 2009 Games.

Roberts is off his rocker, though, and making things up. To wit, his claim that the reason for testing at the 2009 was because of "corporate sponsorship" is laughable. (Disclaimer, I wrote the drug testing policy that year; I think I'd remember.)
While I understand your knowledge of the "how's" and "why's" is much more vast than my own, the fact that this does appeal to would be sponsors should be taken into consideration. After all, the Games are a product that sells the sport and advertising along with it. Companies produce 30 to 60 second adds, and pay large sums of money to be associated with the Games, and being able to add "drug tested" could be big for some potential ad buyers. I know it's not the intent, but it does add to the credibility for advertising. Part of a reason why World's Strongest Man has a tough time finding someone outside of Met-RX.

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Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
He claims some kind of community credibility, but he's not one of us. It's evident from the assumptions underlying almost everything he writes.
Giving the benefit of the doubt that he got his L1 prior to the ANSI L1, and given he has even co-authored a piece in the CF Journal (wfs) back to 2011, I would say that he has some knowledge of CF and what goes into it. He may not attend a cube (box) every week, but it's obvious he has been around the sport to some degree dating back prior to 2010 (prior to the ANSI accreditation).

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Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
His fundamental lack of understanding about the difference between a regular "gym" and a CrossFit Affiliate renders almost anything he says following that almost unreadable for me. That he doesn't understand the difference between a person who values their fitness at $9.95 /mo. and the person who pays for training at a CrossFit Affiliate may be all that one needs to know.
We all attend the cube/box for our own reason. I have had women confess that they "only crossfit so that they can drink wine", and are serious about it. Mind you they are paying for the unlimited option at the affiliate for this too. So because they are paying more than $100 a month, are they any more serious than the guy who spends $10 a month and is following Starting Strength to a tee at Planet Fitness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
But, if you want more, he shows how little he misapprehends what CrossFit even is when he talks about the reasoning of why we test, as well as his observation of why "gear" (as he and his ilk like to call it) is taboo in this community. It's fairly revealing that he doesn't get the deeper implications behind that taboo, especially for the Games.
Truth of the matter is it is called "gear" to a large majority outside of CF. In fact, I always have to have it cleared up as to what is meant when someone mentions the term to me for this reason. If you spend enough time in the gym prior to CF, or in high school/college, this is the common name for it, not PED's or 'roids, or anything else.

Telling someone who has 2 published books on the topic that they don't get the "deeper implications" of using gear/PEDS in the Games is ludicrous. He understands exactly what is at stake, we all do, $250K+ sponsorship, life-long credentials/title, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale F. Saran View Post
I'm not naive and suggesting that there isn't use by some at the Games level - we know because some have been caught and DQ'd already. But his "mathematical" justification for it is an embarrassing attempt to pervert science to build credibility for his own warped worldview.
I won't disagree with the mathematical thing. That's stretching a bit I think as well. I also agree with what someone said before about having better knowledge/science of food, micro-nutrients, etc rings true also.

Though you have to admit that he brought some attention to an area that needs some eyes opened. Recently someone stated in a thread on this forum about PEDs that they didn't think being off cycle could help them once the cycle was over. Nothing further could be from the truth. People at all levels need their eyes opened some to the world of PEDs because they need realistic goals and training plans that do not measure up to the level of work someone on them is doing. Someone NOT doing them, should not be training as someone on them does.

Since you mentioned it, will you be publishing a full list of test results, passed and failed? I think this would be great.
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