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Old 05-10-2011, 06:31 PM   #21
Charles Applin
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

I think the inflammatory title of the thread has been well addressed. However, I like the idea brought up in this thread about the workouts (or a large group of possible workouts) being released ahead of time.

Here's a for instance:

Next year, CFHQ releases a month before the Open twenty possible WODs (with possibility of altered rep and weight scheme). When the open starts, there's a rule that video submissions must present: show a newspaper dated at least at the start of the week in addition to showing a written out phrase that's released by CFHQ at the start of the week. CFHQ then release a WOD a week with the required phrase to state and show written on the video.

That means that the video submitted had to have been accomplished in that particular week.

That's just one example, but I really don't see a major benefit with releasing workouts ahead of time. If nothing else, you can handle any and all questions and problems regarding a workout well ahead of time.
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:25 AM   #22
Joe Cebulski
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

I just wanted to say thanks to David and Lincoln for their supportive comments. Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. I've posted on a few occasions to the forum about issues that will be facing crossfit as a professional sport and met nothing but resistance. Whether it's the failure of the current scoring system, drug testing, or in this case...understanding how to peak your performance, crossfit can gain a lot from the decades, if not centuries of trial and error other sports have weathered. The wheel doesn't always have to be reinvented. Again, David, thanks for always making me feel welcomed, and Lincoln...thanks for the support on training theory. Maybe I need to start a crossfit periodization/training theory blog?? Anyway, wish I could buy you both a beer and shoot the crap about crossfit. Would be fun.
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:09 AM   #23
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Cebulski View Post
I just wanted to say thanks to David and Lincoln for their supportive comments. Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. I've posted on a few occasions to the forum about issues that will be facing crossfit as a professional sport and met nothing but resistance. Whether it's the failure of the current scoring system, drug testing, or in this case...understanding how to peak your performance, crossfit can gain a lot from the decades, if not centuries of trial and error other sports have weathered. The wheel doesn't always have to be reinvented. Again, David, thanks for always making me feel welcomed, and Lincoln...thanks for the support on training theory. Maybe I need to start a crossfit periodization/training theory blog?? Anyway, wish I could buy you both a beer and shoot the crap about crossfit. Would be fun.
Lots of us appreciate this kind of thought. Often I like to think about what crossfit could be if it actually followed the "constantly improving by accepting whatever works" ideal instead of blindly following goofy old dogma about 700lbs deadlifters, 3 on 1 off, no periodization, constantly varied not specializing, not needing additional strength work, we don't need 1RM tests, metcon is king, etc.

There's a real opportunity with a movement of this size to figure out what ACTUALLY WORKS BEST. But I get the feeling that political motivations and previous claims interfere with that from time to time. I'm a big fan of crossfit as a movement but not always with it's implementation.

You don't learn to snatch big weights by doing Randy.
You don't get a 500lbs back squat by back squatting once every six months.
You're not "constantly varied" by doing kipping pullups every other day.

Last edited by Matt Haxmeier : 05-13-2011 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:01 AM   #24
Sean Dunston
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

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Originally Posted by Matt Haxmeier View Post
Lots of us appreciate this kind of thought. Often I like to think about what crossfit could be if it actually followed the "constantly improving by accepting whatever works" ideal instead of blindly following goofy old dogma about 700lbs deadlifters, 3 on 1 off, no periodization, constantly varied not specializing, not needing additional strength work, we don't need 1RM tests, metcon is king, etc.

There's a real opportunity with a movement of this size to figure out what ACTUALLY WORKS BEST. But I get the feeling that political motivations and previous claims interfere with that from time to time. I'm a big fan of crossfit as a movement but not always with it's implementation.

You don't learn to snatch big weights by doing Randy.
You don't get a 500lbs back squat by back squatting once every six months.
You're not "constantly varied" by doing kipping pullups every other day
.
true - because those things require at least a modicum of specialization.
CF Mainsite is still trying to push out WODs that give the vast majority of people GPP. The vast majority of people will never have a 500# squat, or a 300# snatch.

I agree that the "movement" as it were, is still a work in progress, but people need to recognize that the CF Games and CF Mainsite programming are totally separate.

I think it is pretty clear, especially to the so-called "elite CrossFitters" and most people who have been following CF for a few years, that even though one (Mainsite) is used to promote and support the other (Games), they are unique animals.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:05 AM   #25
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

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Originally Posted by Joe Cebulski View Post
Whether it's the failure of the current scoring system, drug testing, or in this case...understanding how to peak your performance, crossfit can gain a lot from the decades, if not centuries of trial and error other sports have weathered.
On this topic, I think Crossfit is having an identity crisis.

If the idea is truly to be prepared for the "unknown and unknowable," then periodization isn't such a great idea. For deployed military, law enforcement, firefighters -- Crossfit's original target audience -- the need to work at full capacity can arise at any time, with little or no warning. For this audience, "specializing in not specializing" makes a lot of sense. You might want to cyclically bias your programming toward different areas, but you don't want to abandon any single area for any length of time.

(How well any particular programming -- such as the CF.com main page -- accomplishes that goal is another issue, and not one I want to tackle here.)

But if the idea is to be prepared for the Crossfit Games -- a specific event that takes place at a specific time and place -- then periodization is as valuable, even essential, as it is for any other sport.

The problem is that the potential pool of let's call them recreational Crossfitters is much larger than the potential pool of professional Crossfitters. The more Crossfit grows (or strives to grow), the more it will need to draw from the recreational pool.

But that means scaling for a wide range of abilities, rather than throwing people into the deep end and letting them figure it out. It means programming for a vast array of different needs and goals, some of which are extremely specialized. And it means embracing periodization as one way to reach those goals.

All of these are essentially impossible to do in a one-size-fits-all daily WOD. That impossibility manifests itself everywhere from the main page being viewed as increasingly irrelevant, to individual affiliates struggling to fit individualized programming into the group class model.

CFHQ is trying to bring the "occupational athlete" model to the masses, and it doesn't fit. They haven't yet figured out how to resolve the conflict.

Katherine
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:11 AM   #26
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

Yea, like the previous two posters, it wasn't my intention to come across that what was happening was really okay or acceptable in any sort of real competition, I think you mistook my meaning. I think most of us that spend any considerable time around here are simply far too jaded about everything "they" do to possibly expect/hope for anything better, so a couple of athletes who we already knew would perform well having the wod early is pretty negligable. They changed scoring methods mid-competition for crissakes.
The whole online Open was a fun trial that got alot of people involved in the "sport" and really bolstered the sense of community. I would love to see it (or something similar) available for everyday wods, as it's about time mainsite offered a higher quality method of sharing wod results than "post times to comments", I think that would probably be a more appropriate use of what they set up and probably should have been used in that way leading up to the Open to test the technology at the very least. Beyond that it was pretty much a wash as any sort of formalized competition, they were making stuff up as they went along and one can only hope they nail this crap down before next year.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:53 AM   #27
William Clark
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Applin View Post
Here's a for instance:

Next year, CFHQ releases a month before the Open twenty possible WODs (with possibility of altered rep and weight scheme). When the open starts, there's a rule that video submissions must present: show a newspaper dated at least at the start of the week in addition to showing a written out phrase that's released by CFHQ at the start of the week. CFHQ then release a WOD a week with the required phrase to state and show written on the video.
I might have missed somebody else saying this, but I think this is somewhat how it was done, although on a much smaller scale. I'm sure Crossfit HQ had a pool of ~10-20 workouts that they had the HQ trainers (including but not limited to Speal and Khalipa) test out, so they could see what the best workouts would be for the Open, in terms of competitiveness and being an effective test. At least this is the impression I got from the video.

Just throwing a workout out ahead of time wouldn't really be wise, without having somebody try it. Did you notice that everytime they posted the workout they already had scores and videos of athletes completing them? Clearly somebody's going to know ahead of time what all the WODs are.
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Old 05-13-2011, 12:47 PM   #28
Jared Ashley
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

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considering that Khalipa has a life-long 'get in the games free' pass since he won the 2008 games and Speal pre-qualified due to finishing 3rd last year, what advantage do they gain for a contest in which they are not competing?
This, for one. Although to be fair, if Speal and Khalipa had this info, it seems likely that others did also... some of them may not have the above exceptions.

Honestly though, while this would be completely unacceptable at the games, and even at the regionals, I don't think it matters in the open.

First, the format meant everybody got at least a week to do each WOD as many times as they wanted, and to brush up on skills like MU's or DU's before they hit the WOD. that erodes a lot of the advantage you describe.

While prior knowledge might give somebody at a lower level an edge in qualifying for regionals, I just don't see it making any difference for somebody who has qualified for a prior CF games. If they were in the top 60 men in the WORLD last year, certainly they will have no trouble making into the top 60 in their region.

I see your point, and at regionals where only the top 3 qualify and nobody knows the workout until the day of this would be fraud... in the open? meh.
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Old 05-14-2011, 03:36 AM   #29
Adam Carlson
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

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Originally Posted by Joe Cebulski View Post
Sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. I've posted on a few occasions to the forum about issues that will be facing crossfit as a professional sport and met nothing but resistance.
Just so we're clear, I wasn't trying to shoot you down or become part of the 'wall' in your way; I just wanted to point out that having two guys who are pre-qualified test the waters really doesn't muck with the competition, particularly since they aren't even competing.

Also, as was pointed out, the Open is a testing ground. For those guys in the games last year, chances are, they would make the top 60 whether they knew the WODs or not. One of them not qualifying in the open would be the equivalent of an NFL MVP quarterback walking into the locker room at the beginning of the season and being told he's going to sit the bench.

If the WODs from higher levels of the selection process or the '11 Games were leaked ahead of time (particularly if they required specialized skills and/or equipment), that would call into question the validity of the games. For example, if one of the WODs was handgun use (which they have been covering quite a bit in the journal), and Graham, Speal, Jason, Miko or any other top competitor had been told about it way in advance, that would be a huge issue.

The Open will get refined, and even if someone somehow slipped through the cracks and was able to get through it to the next level, they will either prove that they are capable or go home. The person that they just barely made it passed in order to qualify would probably also be in the 'capable or go home' category anyway.

There are more considerations to be made as this progresses, to be sure. At the moment though, it doesn't seem to be that great of an issue.
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:40 AM   #30
Rick Hardin
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Re: Crossfit Games Fraud - What are your thoughts

Any changes to the PED testing protocols and/or procedures for the games this year?
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