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Old 06-02-2009, 12:46 PM   #1
Mike Kelley
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1/2 marathon + CFSB

Posted this on CFE but this site has more traffic so I figured I'd try my luck here as well


I decided to get "back" (5k is max I've done) into running and train for a half marathon on Sept. 6th. (roughly 13 weeks away)

I don't want to completely neglect my strength or the CrossFit type of programming, but I need help incorporating CFE with the Strength Bias

This is what I was PLANNING to do (pre CFE)...help on what to replace the reg. running crap with would be greatly appreciated...if at all possible I'd like to keep the Sunday long run (it sort of replaces the MetCon only day...except it's a lot longer).
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Sunday: Long Run (increases each week from 4,5,6,8,10,11,12,9,8, race 13.1)

Monday: Press 3x5 or 5x3...then 10-7-4 or 12-9-6, same thing for pull-ups, MetCon: 20 mins or less

Tuesday: Front Squat 3x5 or 5x3, 20rep BSQ, MetCon less than 10 min....3+ hours later: 3-4 mile run

Wednesday: OFF from everything (maybe recovery stuff...foam rolling, etc)

Thursday: Bench Press 3x5 or 5x3..then 10-7-4 or 12-9-6...MetCon 15 mins or less...3+ hours later: 3-6 mile run (depending on week)

Friday: Light Cleans, Deadlift 3x5..then 12-9-6 (or whatever), MetCon less than 10 min...3+ hours later: 3-4 mile run

Saturday: OFF

Like I said (or didn't) I'm completely new to training to run...opinions/advice would be wonderful
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:22 PM   #2
Steven Low
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

You're not going to make good gains on either by trying to do too many things at once.

ANd that schedule is waaaaaaay too much.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:49 PM   #3
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

I agree with Steven. CF makes you pretty good at everything. CFE makes you less good at strength and explosiveness but really good at stamina, endurance and form (for monostructural events). CFSB makes you strong and increases metcon (especially for those for whom strength is a weakness and in the sub 20 minute range). CFFB makes you strong and explosive and really increases events in the sub 15 minute range.

THe reason these things focus on one thing over another is that you have a limited ability to recover. Recovery is the limiting factor. Anyone that is still doing CF or something like it after a year has no problem causing enough stress to cause an adaption, so their performance is limited by their ability to recover.

My suggestion is this. FIgure out what you really want to do (be pretty good at everything, be really good at this thing, be really good at that thing, etc). Follow a program that supports those goals. Clean up you diet, eat enough, get enough sleep, take cold/contrast showers/baths. DO whatever you can you increase recovery.

Then, slowly add in stuff to support your secondary goals. WHen you start to overtrain or stagnate, re-evaluate your goals and do the whole thing over again.
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:56 PM   #4
Jacob Cloud
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

^ what they said


Also, 20RM BS should be a metcon in itself.

Personally, I think you have way too much "3-6 mile run" junk and not enough "400-800m sprint interval" stuff, too. Depending on your strength level advancement, you could probably just do CFSB and add in 2-3 CFE workouts (a tabata, an interval day, and a tempo day, for example) and be fine.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:06 PM   #5
Christian Groenveld
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

I agree w/ Jacob. Why try to reinvent CFE? Add a CFE wod to your crossfit wod 2-3 times a week up to 3 times a week if you're recovering well. It works, i've done it. No need for all those mid-week 3-6 mile runs.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:12 PM   #6
Kevin Thomas
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Question for those giving advice to the OP. Why would you think he could get away without doing the 3-6 mile runs if he doesn't have an endurance background. CFE by its own definition is for those who already have an endurance base. The OP doesn't, so CFE isn't for him.

The question seems to be, is it possible to build an endurance base from scratch while doing some form of CrossFit. The official answer to this point seems a pretty clear no. Currently, there is no CF program that I know of that allows for this. And people who try to come up with a program like the OP seem to be met with resistance. Is this just the CF bias against endurance sports? Is it really impossible to build an endurance base from scratch while following a CF protocol?
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:16 PM   #7
Jacob Cloud
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

As a fat guy with NO endurance background, I found better results from intervals and HIT type stuff than slow grinding tempos, but will freely admit this was only in regards to 3-4 mile training.

Now that I'm looking to train for 4+ hour endurance sessions (mountaineering/hiking), I'm going to follow the same type of training. I'll basically be doing the SS type weight routine w/ a side of CFE workouts and some sport-specific days, and I don't think it'll fail. But we'll see.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:19 PM   #8
Steven Low
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
Question for those giving advice to the OP. Why would you think he could get away without doing the 3-6 mile runs if he doesn't have an endurance background. CFE by its own definition is for those who already have an endurance base. The OP doesn't, so CFE isn't for him.

The question seems to be, is it possible to build an endurance base from scratch while doing some form of CrossFit. The official answer to this point seems a pretty clear no. Currently, there is no CF program that I know of that allows for this. And people who try to come up with a program like the OP seem to be met with resistance. Is this just the CF bias against endurance sports? Is it really impossible to build an endurance base from scratch while following a CF protocol?
Considering that long runs pretty much do nothing for improving your speed, and if you want to improve quickly in longer runs (or sprints for that matter) you need to be doing some type of interval work.

Granted, if you're looking to be elite you need the longer runs to improve your effeciency, and train longer aerobic base... but if you're anywhere under advanced interval work is the way to go with a tempo run here and there


And that program is waaaaaaay too much regardless.

For performance...
~CF + couple intervals would work + a longer run here and there (CFE)
~intervals + some strength would work + a longer run here and there
~Pure running work obviously

Combining everything into one WON'T work.

Now if he just wants to finish a 1/2 marathon he can honestly do whatever he wants because finishing isn't THAT hard. Hell, most people that do marathons do some combo of jog/walk the whole thing anyway and finish >4 hrs so it's whatever.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:35 PM   #9
Kevin Thomas
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Steven,

I've never seen or heard of a good distance runner who didn't at some point run actual mileage to get to that point. Have you? Interval work seems important, but I don't see how someone avoids putting some mileage in if they want to build an endurance base (and about 15 miles a week like the OP suggested isn't that much mileage). It seems like the OP could put in the interval work as his short metcons and couple that with a couple mid distance and one long run a week while adding whatever CFSB strength work in he can handle. I do agree that the OP's plan looks like too much work regardless.
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Old 06-02-2009, 03:06 PM   #10
Shane Skowron
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Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
CFE by its own definition is for those who already have an endurance base.
Where does it say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
Steven,

I've never seen or heard of a good distance runner who didn't at some point run actual mileage to get to that point. Have you? Interval work seems important, but I don't see how someone avoids putting some mileage in if they want to build an endurance base (and about 15 miles a week like the OP suggested isn't that much mileage). It seems like the OP could put in the interval work as his short metcons and couple that with a couple mid distance and one long run a week while adding whatever CFSB strength work in he can handle. I do agree that the OP's plan looks like too much work regardless.

15 miles a week + CrossFit is all you need for a half marathon. Someone really fit could get by on half of that.


To the OP: From reading the CFSB article before it sounds like that program is intensive already. Adding running on top of that sounds like it would wipe you out. If you are interested in strength and endurance, I would suggest doing 3-4 CFE WODs per week (add extra to make up for the lack of metcon workouts) and 3-4 ME strength WODs per week. The problem with that is that you will lose other aspects of fitness such as your ability to do pullups, pushups, etc. If you want to do fitness with an endurance bias, just do CFE. If you are interested in overall fitness with a strength and endurance bias, I think you're out of luck. Just do CF+CFE or just do strength + CFE.
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