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Old 07-08-2008, 07:30 PM   #21
Brandon Oto
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Re: Please critique this squat

Those are good squats. I think you guys are disagreeing about not much at this point. The difference in head position is minimal. The OP is looking forward at the top and when he descends he looks quite steeply downward, which is wrong, but easily adjustable.

The second link is one of the better examples from Mark's ************ forum.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:16 PM   #22
Robert Callahan
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Re: Please critique this squat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
I am telling you, I worked with the guy, rather he worked with me.... he is not looking down how you think he is and is not advocating LOOKING DOWN at the floor like you are interpeting it or how Andrew is executing. That is not what he taught.
I never said he advises looking down, only that your neck should be neutral with your spine and you should be looking around 6-8 feet infront of you. The OP has a neutral neck position and his gaze IN MY OPINION is around 6 feet in front of him, a few feet past the rack out of the screen, i cannot say this is for sure, but thats what i thought when i watched the video. I posted Rip's squat to prove the point that just because the head is low does not mean the eyes are straight down!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
But her posture was correct, regardless of her head position.
head position is part of posture....


either way as Brandon said i think we have killed it and are arguing the same thing but are comunicating it differently. If nothing else i have watched a lot of squating videos in the last few days and done some good reading :P

-Robert
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:32 AM   #23
Scott Kustes
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Re: Please critique this squat

Not sure what else there is to add at this point, but here's what I see:
- I think his head is pretty low as well. You can't see his eyes in the video, but he is definitely dropping the head. In the 2nd squat of the 2nd video, his head goes almost parallel to the floor. I find it hard to believe that he's staring 6-10' in front of him with his head that low.
- Hips not kicking back, i.e., not sitting back, but rather sitting down, accordian style. As others pointed out, sitting back will bring the knees back and activate the posterior chain better.
- Bar could maybe be a touch higher, but it's hard to tell from these videos.
- Knees caving in at the bottom. Lower the weight and focus on pushing your knees out.
- Could open up the stance a bit, not to powerlifting width, but an inch or so per side. Not of utmost importance though.

All in all, pretty close to being there.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:40 AM   #24
Joey Powell
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Re: Please critique this squat

If ..."The second link is one of the better examples from Mark's ************ forum." is true you should see a Major difference in hip movement, bar placement, and stance; and if not I would suggest you go work with Rip at a BB cert and not just read the book.

Here are some solicited comments from another affiliate owner I trust when it comes to understanding both Rip and powerlifts.

"I looked at his vids before I read your comments just to make sure my view
wasn't tainted. Here is what I saw:

Head position is wrong. He shouldn't be looking down - asking for a bunch of
trouble.
His chest is too far forward
He is breaking at his knees first, not with his hips
On his way up his right knee turns in
Doesn't look like he is leading with his hips on the way up either - looks
like he is using his back.

His depth is good.

That's what I got before I read your posts - after reading what you wrote -
I think we're in agreement."


The second link I posted was very good for a kid in his house.

Outside of the sticking point of the 1st link, that guy was rock solid fundamentally and quite strong to boot.

There are differences here. However, the fixes are fairly easy and will make a rapid difference (2 weeks tops).

Andrew, I am asking you to seriously consider what I am recommending and making some adjustments for a couple of squat sessions.
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:30 PM   #25
Robert Callahan
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Re: Please critique this squat

Not to revive a dead thread, just found a video i thought was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8

It is a vid of Rip fixing a kids hip drive in his squat. At one point he says, "Look Down because that is going to enable the hip drive to take place."

His words not mine.

-Robert
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:54 AM   #26
Joey Powell
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Re: Please critique this squat

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/002894.html

Here, I was at this cert. This is what he means by down. She was put out there for as evidence of a good squat....so was I.

I get that you have read his book (atleast), but you do not seem to understand what he is saying as it relates to what Andrew's squat demonstrated.

I would suggest that you be very careful about doling out advice you learn in a book as fact until you have been to a cert, or trained in person by Rip and/or are regularly training people in the lifts, in person. Your constant misinterpretation if what you think you understand may well inadvertently cause people to reinforce bad habits that will rapidly stunt progress.


You either CLEARLY, have not yet developed the ability to SEE what is actually happening, or you do not understand what should happen.

I don't expect you to actually listen to what I am saying, but I thought I would throw it out their anyway. I truely believe, you are an asset to the boards and I appreciate your contributions.
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:03 AM   #27
Brandon Oto
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Re: Please critique this squat

One important distinction here is the role of the upper back in determining head position. If your hips and lumbar are correctly positioned, you can either have your thoracic spine hunched, in which case your head will be looking more down, or you can have your thoracic spine nicely extended, in which case you'll be looking more forward -- in both cases the actual relationship of the head to the back can be exactly the same, that is to say, neutral.

Once again, in its own right (meaning, if everything else is correct), this is not a very big deal.
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:16 PM   #28
Brandon Oto
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Re: Please critique this squat

Rip sez: http://************.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1962 wfs
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:01 PM   #29
Robert Callahan
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Re: Please critique this squat

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Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
...Your constant misinterpretation...
What "Constant Misinterpretation" are you talking about here? the fact that the cervical spine should be neutral? The fact that looking down helps facilitate hip drive vs looking up? That knees should be pushed out and stop coming foward after the first 1/3 of the decent?

If any one of these statements are incorrect then please explain why and stop telling me that you know better cause you have been to a cert. You have no idea whether i have been to a cert or not and what my experience as a trainer may be and regardless it has NO BEARING on this discussion at all.

If by "constant misinterpretation" you are refering to other posts, please point them out to me and tell me what advice i have given that has been innaccurate or incorrect.

Your overall condescension and BS holy than thou attitude is also pretty lame. Go back and read our first posts. Your first several paragraphs essentially ellaborate on what i said, his knees coming foward at the bottom. So I havnt "developed my eye" yet for problems in the squat and yet the main thing wrong with the squat we both identified.

How about instead of going and spouting off the rules you have learned for how to squat you RESPOND to what I have said. What advice have I given that was incorrect and why is it wrong? You do that, without the condescension BS, and then I will respond with problems in your logic. Then we can go back and forth so that we can further our knowledge and learn something. 3, 2, 1, go

-Robert
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:35 AM   #30
Joey Powell
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Re: Please critique this squat

The point is, because he is doing a standing leg press, the hips are not driving. There is no hip "drive". Hip drive is produced across the horizontal plane in the squat, however it is translated in vertical rise because of the knees. A straight leg good-morning is "hip drive" as well but with much less vertical drive. Yet, for mimicking hip drive in the squat or the deadlift for that matter, no better exercise exists at this point than the Good Morning variants.

This being said, he does have knee drive, unfortunately the goal of the squat is hip centric.

Just like in the KB swing, the kipping pull-up, the deadlift, the SDHP... the action of the hip is done in the horizontal.

The incredible forward lean he has coupled with him staring down at the plat form has converted the dynamics of the lift. He might as well be sitting in a leg press.

So, no you haven't developed an eye for it. Because you fail to understand that Looking down is for depth perception purposes, not depth gage purposes. The sighting is not just about neutral spine. It is about maintaining spacial awareness when your blood pressure is through the roof.

as Rip points out in his explanation of the appearance of his squat from the video...he is not looking down at the platform. He also tells us that:

A. he is not holding himself as a model of proper technique and
B. he has a kyphosis happening on his thoracic spine.

The point of his video was to show he still puts out and he says as much.

If you go full screen with Andrews's videos and slow them down, you will see that he is leaned over too far too sit back with the hips. His sighting on the platform is making it even more difficult to judge his HIP depth with visual clues.

It doesn't matter what kind of squat it is. Low bar, high bar, Front, etc. What else is noticeable in videos 2 and 3 is that he is not indeed neutral at the cervical spine with this already unnecessarily shallow back angle, but it is flexed to the point of being parallel to the floor for much of the lift.

Also, if you level out the screen, you see that the bar is not inline with the mid foot, rather a couple of inches forward. (The Screen tilts down to the left, after you level out the screen you can see that the bar is to the right/front of the mid foot he appears to be getting too much of his drive from the front of his foot, which also happens when the knees slip forward)

What I am telling you is, that if he would not look down so much (i.e keep his chest up), the other stuff may largely fix itself. He could sit back more, his quads would be there to stabilize the knees rather than extend them, He would find more acceleration of the bar on the concentric phase and he may well be able to speed up the eccentric phase as well, which will help with increasingly larger loads if he can keep them under control.

The back angle created by having the bar so "low" appears to be the main culprit of the excessive forward lean of the torso in the first place. Seriously, look carefully at videos 2 and 3. It appears the bar is in fact below the scapula Perhaps it is miss understanding or application of Rip's guidance is keeping him from getting his chest up. (see "chest up" in Figure 23 on page 31 of SS edition 1) Because his back angle is so shallow he not sit BACK correctly and not face plant at the same time...so he accordion squats instead.

Yet, you are misunderstanding Rip's words without acknowledging that a guy like myself may just have a better grasp on this particular topic. If you feel that you must continue giving advice from a book, then by all means, but my point still stands until you have been trained or actually train others in person.

So you tell me, which is more important... getting the hips to drive back so that the hamstrings stay tight and not allow the knees to slip forward or looking down at the platform?

I am telling you, that hips driving back is far more important and that if he will look up slightly (or not down as much by bringing the chest up) and let the back angle follow, he will be able to sit back.

Brandon, you also understand that he does this demonstration without much load, if any, so DOWN is relevant? (see figure 18 on page 26 of SS 1st edition) I can tell you that no one at his cert demonstrates staring DOWN as shown in the videos and we don't demonstrate head position DOWN at the platform at the Level 1 CF certs either. Now that I got Rip's books back off the shelf I see that no pictures or illustrations show anyone looking down directly at the floor either.
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