CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-03-2009, 09:05 AM   #31
Kevin Thomas
Member Kevin Thomas is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 762
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

In Georgia, Scott's a girls name. Sorry for the confusion.

It was a lofty goal no doubt. CFE wasn't enough to get Scott there. Perhaps more specialized training would have. Perhaps not. We cannot know that.

The race absolutely was a failure. Goals mean something and not meeting your goals is a failure. The poster thought it was a failure and that's all that matters. I don't mean that in any sort of critical sense. The poster will probably learn something from his experience and that's invaluable. He apparently learned that he needs more mileage under his belt.

Last edited by Kevin Thomas : 06-03-2009 at 09:08 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 09:24 AM   #32
Shane Skowron
Member Shane Skowron is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Queens  NY
Posts: 3,800
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
The testimonials and success I've read about using CFE are from people with a background of traditional training in their chosen sport. CFE seems to acknowledge that lacking an aerobic base can be a problem using their training protocol. I haven't seen much success for people using CFE as an intro into their sport. Maybe you have.
I'll refer you to the article "Endurance Training Decreased Training Time & Increased Work Capacity" in the CFJ by BMack.

What I can do here, though, is to break down the last five weeks of training we used for an athlete preparing to run a hilly 50k (that’s 31.2 miles, with 5,490 feet of climbing) as his first long-distance race. This particular guy—we’ll call him “Rookie”—was a newcomer to these kinds of distances. The longest run he had ever done was 15 miles, and before beginning this program, he was not even actively a runner. We implemented the plan below for the last five weeks of training before race day, and, on November 18, he completed his 50k with no problems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
Steven, there is no indication that her injury was from overuse (at least in the LSD training sense of the word). She got injured from trying to run further than she had trained following CFE.
ITBS is always from overuse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas View Post
The race absolutely was a failure. Goals mean something and not meeting your goals is a failure. The poster thought it was a failure and that's all that matters. I don't mean that in any sort of critical sense. The poster will probably learn something from his experience and that's invaluable. He apparently learned that he needs more mileage under his belt.
I guess if you count not achieving unrealistic goals as a failure, sure.

Consider:


At the beginning of my training i did a 10k run in 53min and a 1k sprint in 4:17 to establish my starting point.


A 10k run in 53 minutes predicts a marathon time of at least 4:05 if you are trained to run a marathon (much slower if you are untrained).

The training program was 14 weeks.

To obtain a 3:15 marathon, you will need roughly a 42 minute 10k.

If you can find any program that will bring a 53:00 10k to a 42:00 10k in 14 weeks, let me know. Until then, I'm concluding that the goal set was unrealistic. A 3:45 marathon is actually way better than the predicted time of over 4:05, assuming Scott's 10k PR did not change during the 14 week period. A 3:45 marathon corresponds to roughly a 48:30 10k, and it's reasonable to think that his new 10k PR at the end of training was somewhere around that number and not somewhere around 42:00.

I'd love to run a sub-18 hour 100mi in two months. It's not going to happen. Why? Because I'm simply not that fast yet. CFE programming isn't magic. If you're not fast at short distances, you're not going to magically get fast at longer distances. More likely, you'll conform to the predicted times based on accepted formulas. If you want to run a sub-3 hour marathon, you better have much less than a 1:30 half. If you can't even make a 1:30 half, why even bother setting a goal of sub-3 hours for a marathon, since you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment. Goals must be realistic.

CFE helped this guy go from a predicted 4:05 marathon at the start of training to a 3:45 marathon in 14 weeks without ever going over 13.1 in training. You say it's a failure?

Last edited by Shane Skowron : 06-03-2009 at 09:27 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 09:40 AM   #33
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
I'd love to run a sub-18 hour 100mi in two months. It's not going to happen. Why? Because I'm simply not that fast yet. CFE programming isn't magic. If you're not fast at short distances, you're not going to magically get fast at longer distances. More likely, you'll conform to the predicted times based on accepted formulas. If you want to run a sub-3 hour marathon, you better have much less than a 1:30 half. If you can't even make a 1:30 half, why even bother setting a goal of sub-3 hours for a marathon, since you'll be setting yourself up for disappointment. Goals must be realistic.
Yes, exactly. Which is something both pro-CF/CFE and anti-CF/CFE people need to remember. If the goal is unrealistic, claiming that Crossfit (or any other program) will help the person meet it just makes Crossfit look bad when they (inevitably) don't.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 10:03 AM   #34
Matthew Sutterfield
Member Matthew Sutterfield is offline
 
Matthew Sutterfield's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Long Beach  CA
Posts: 18
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

THis whole thread has been an interesting read, as I am playing around with ways to develop a solid program that encompasses "it all"... swimming, running (max of ~8 mi distances), pushups, pullups, situps, overall strength/ability to do WORK... and obviously, overtraining & recovery is the major puzzle to solve.

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned the idea of cycling CFSB and CFE while sticking with standard CF wod's (something I'm thinking about implementing)... anyone have thoughts on this, and what a good cycle length would be?

Funny thing, how it is detrimental to overthink fitness and training (at the cost of [i]doing[i] anything), but it can be equally detrimental to plunge into training blindly... ahh, balance...
__________________
M 26 - 6ft - 173lb - started Xfit Feb 2009
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 10:27 AM   #35
Steven Low
Member Steven Low is offline
 
Steven Low's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: silver spring  maryland
Posts: 12,221
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Yeah, IT band syndrome is generally overuse and improper recovery (stretching, foam rolling, etc.)

Anyway, whatever.

People already know what I would recommend for the OP. Take it or leave it.
__________________
Posts are NOT medical, training, nutrition info
Bodyweight Article, Overcoming Gravity Book
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 11:14 AM   #36
Greg Light
Member Greg Light is offline
 
Greg Light's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham  MI
Posts: 2,933
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

What is everyone's thoughts on the those running pace calculators?

I did 2 miles yesterday in 13:22 which implies a high 1:30s half (I know this is not true as I did a half on Sunday in 1:52). It also implied a full marathon in 3:23 and I did a full last fall in 4:06.

I definitely do not fall in the category of not clocking enough mileage as last fall I was consistently in the 35 MPW range and never had any injuries.

The shorter distances are pretty spot on though. My 400 time is slightly faster than predicted, my mile is almost exact, my 5k is almost exact, but once it hits 10k, I start getting markedly slower.

What gives? Where should I be focusing my attention so that my longer races will coincide with my shorter run times?

I'm 5'10" 195 lb if that matters.

Maybe its just a matter of it being harder to get all this poundage to keep going the long distances as I definitely don't have the prototypical runners build.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 11:34 AM   #37
Shane Skowron
Member Shane Skowron is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Queens  NY
Posts: 3,800
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Light View Post
What is everyone's thoughts on the those running pace calculators?

I did 2 miles yesterday in 13:22 which implies a high 1:30s half (I know this is not true as I did a half on Sunday in 1:52). It also implied a full marathon in 3:23 and I did a full last fall in 4:06.

I definitely do not fall in the category of not clocking enough mileage as last fall I was consistently in the 35 MPW range and never had any injuries.

The shorter distances are pretty spot on though. My 400 time is slightly faster than predicted, my mile is almost exact, my 5k is almost exact, but once it hits 10k, I start getting markedly slower.

What gives? Where should I be focusing my attention so that my longer races will coincide with my shorter run times?

I'm 5'10" 195 lb if that matters.

Maybe its just a matter of it being harder to get all this poundage to keep going the long distances as I definitely don't have the prototypical runners build.

The calculators are generally accurate if, and that's a big if, you are trained for the particular event you are running. How to tell if you are trained for a particular event...well, I cannot say for sure. If you do CF you will always be "trained" to a certain extent for a 5k, so predicting your 5k time based on 1-2 mile times, etc, should be fairly accurate. Predicting beyond that will be more difficult.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 11:38 AM   #38
Greg Light
Member Greg Light is offline
 
Greg Light's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham  MI
Posts: 2,933
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
The calculators are generally accurate if, and that's a big if, you are trained for the particular event you are running. How to tell if you are trained for a particular event...well, I cannot say for sure. If you do CF you will always be "trained" to a certain extent for a 5k, so predicting your 5k time based on 1-2 mile times, etc, should be fairly accurate. Predicting beyond that will be more difficult.
Based on everything I read, I had trained in the traditional style for a full marathon....steadily increasing mileage with long runs of increasing distance with a final long run of 22 miles 4 weeks before the marathon with a gradual taper down to 25% mileage the week before the marathon.

Oh well....maybe it was just a bad day, we'll see how they go this year.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 12:20 PM   #39
Dave Hardy
Member Dave Hardy is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Nottingham  UK
Posts: 131
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

I'd agree with the above poster that to call a 3:45 marathon debut a failure is harsh in the extreme, considering how many people's goal at first is simply to finish. For my first effort was aiming for 4 hours and didn't make that.

To get back to the original question, for a reasonable half marathon three runs a week is gonna be o.k, especially if you're lifting heavy as well. If you're worried about losing your ability to do things like pull ups and press ups just do a few sub maximal sets a few times a week, this shouldn't detract from your other training provided you don't savage yourself with them.

Also based on my own journey from couch to full marathon distance, I doubt I could have completed the full 26.2 had I not put in distance work above what the individual describes doing in the CFE forums. The longest run I did in training was somewhere between 18-20 miles. (that's what you get from measuring on an old map with a bit of string)

Running this sort of distance is hard, and you won't immediately recover from it, but to me it was absolutely worth it. Experiencing at least some of the fatigue imposed by the full distance prepared me mentally and physically for what I would encounter on race day.

This said, when I started training the only execise I'd had for three years was bicep curling pint glasses, and the sum total of my knowledge of fitness and nutrition would have fitted comfortably on the back of a beermat.

Cracking the same race again this November, and that 4 hour mark will be broken!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2009, 12:27 PM   #40
Anders Lofgren
Member Anders Lofgren is offline
 
Anders Lofgren's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Malmö  Skåne
Posts: 20
Re: 1/2 marathon + CFSB

This discussion about CFE is interesting. I am doing CFE (tri/run), but I still believe in high milage training, it's just not for me. The CFE programming is attractive to me for other reasons:

It prepares me for many different distances and I can compete and do pretty good at races and still train to get strong and allround fit.

I can go for a short training session on my lunch break and spend time with my family in the evening.

I don't feel stressed for not having the time to go on 6 h bike rides

It is more fun

It is different

It gives mental strength, but I believe that for those running a marathon or ulta for the first time, based on only CFE training, one must allow oneself to fail. It is impossible to know what to expect after 40 km race tempo running if you havent tried it.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CFSB - Let's dance.... Ben Gallardy Workout Logs 186 10-15-2009 12:20 PM
CFSB Question? Chad McBroom Community 1 03-27-2009 08:16 AM
CFSB... and a new CFT PR! Jared Ashley Testimonials 5 03-19-2009 01:01 PM
CFSB? Whats that? Brian Dolan Starting 3 03-15-2009 06:41 PM
CFSB ... why does it work? Tom Fetter Fitness 24 02-19-2009 12:15 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.