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Old 08-05-2011, 02:52 PM   #121
Dave Johns
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
The thing that people always forget in this argument is that the main goal is to test "capacity". There's very little difference in the physical capacity for endurance that's tested in the Beach WOD and a 10k run. If anything, I'd argue that the capacity tested in the Beach WOD is greater, as the pull-ups, push-ups and squats actually require a higher metabolic output.
Maybe, but that's not the point. I'm not interested in cumulative metabolic output. Every single event tests that. I'm interested in testing basic endurance whether it be running, swimming or biking. These are very basic, easily measured and well known metrics of fitness. It's not being tested at all. If we are going to make all these claims about fitness, then surely we shouldn't be avoiding it.

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
If you were to do a 10k run instead, you would bias the event towards the running specialist. Once you go beyond 20 minutes in any single modality, the variance in the physical capacity that is tested becomes insignificant;
What? Why would the variance become insignificant? Are you suggesting each athlete would end up with the same result? If so, that's just naive. If not, then the fact that different outcomes occur, is due to different levels of endurance and hence different levels of fitness. That's the whole point of testing it.

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Originally Posted by Christopher G. Woods View Post
at that point, you are primarily testing the skill of the athlete in pacing their self over the longer time domain. This is a matter of experience, not fitness.
So is every other event. Everything has a skill and experience component. If you don't have the 'skill' to run a 10km run efficiently, then you shouldn't go around calling yourself the 'Fittest Athlete Ever'.
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Old 08-05-2011, 03:08 PM   #122
Dave Johns
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Re: Final games thoughts

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And I can deadlift 1000lbs and run a 4 minute mile on my hands.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:11 PM   #123
Vickie Ellickson
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Dave Johns View Post
I'm not interested in cumulative metabolic output. Every single event tests that. I'm interested in testing basic endurance whether it be running, swimming or biking. These are very basic, easily measured and well known metrics of fitness. It's not being tested at all.
Tell the competitors on Sunday evening after the Games that their endurance wasn't tested and let me know how that works out for you.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:27 PM   #124
Ben Norris
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Re: Final games thoughts

Is this dave guy a troll? As far as I can tell by his posts the only real test of fitness out there is a 10km run, and whoever wins that is the fittest man on the planet even if that is all they can do........
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:03 PM   #125
Pär Larsson
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Is this dave guy a troll? As far as I can tell by his posts the only real test of fitness out there is a 10km run, and whoever wins that is the fittest man on the planet even if that is all they can do........
No, he's just a die-hard specialist that's upset that we're not testing in his speciality.

That said, a 5k run and longer swims and more throwing events wouldn't be off. Toss some heavy thrusters at the end of a 5k and call it good - there'll be little difference in the results of that and a 10k.

Dave is biased. So am I, though maybe slightly less. So is Mr. Glassman and anyone that thinks CF isn't prejudiced with a bias toward gymnastics specializing and weightlifting and against swimming and endurance. Even with that built-in bias it's still the most naturally functional fitness program/movement in the world.

Why is CF like this? Because Mr. Glassman came to this from a gymnastics background and a bunch of heavy lift - specialists got involved early on and because it's an American cultural/business movement, and Americans have a tendency to not like to run quite as much as other cultures, with a great many exceptions.

The fact that people could make it to the Games without being halfway decent swimmers is a travesty. Slightly less problematic, but still problematic, is that they were never tested on any run longer than 1500m.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:42 PM   #126
Ben Norris
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
No, he's just a die-hard specialist that's upset that we're not testing in his speciality.

That said, a 5k run and longer swims and more throwing events wouldn't be off. Toss some heavy thrusters at the end of a 5k and call it good - there'll be little difference in the results of that and a 10k.

Dave is biased. So am I, though maybe slightly less. So is Mr. Glassman and anyone that thinks CF isn't prejudiced with a bias toward gymnastics specializing and weightlifting and against swimming and endurance. Even with that built-in bias it's still the most naturally functional fitness program/movement in the world.

Why is CF like this? Because Mr. Glassman came to this from a gymnastics background and a bunch of heavy lift - specialists got involved early on and because it's an American cultural/business movement, and Americans have a tendency to not like to run quite as much as other cultures, with a great many exceptions.

The fact that people could make it to the Games without being halfway decent swimmers is a travesty. Slightly less problematic, but still problematic, is that they were never tested on any run longer than 1500m.

Aimed at Dave. Maybe you should do things outside your specialty like you are asking Crossfitters to do and stop being such a hypocrite then.

Par I would have to agree with you. I think the weights at the Games are getting too heavy. You obviously need a few events with heavier weights but you also need more endurance events in there. I mean this year the compeditors were all looking MASSIVE. They definitely have put on mass compared to last year which as we saw by the beach run really slowed them down. And you cannot call yourself the fittest on the planet if you are walking in the second 1.5km run.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:16 AM   #127
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
No, he's just a die-hard specialist that's upset that we're not testing in his speciality.

Why is CF like this? Because Mr. Glassman came to this from a gymnastics background and a bunch of heavy lift - specialists got involved early on and because it's an American cultural/business movement, and Americans have a tendency to not like to run quite as much as other cultures, with a great many exceptions.
Really? I want you to think about that for a moment. Of all the disciplines and bastardizations of said disciplines, how well do you think the best Games competitors would fair in a gymnastics competition? You know, the ones Glassman specialized in where people fly through the air like ninjas. You do realize that pull-ups, walking on your hands, and muscle-ups earn you only blank stares in such a setting. Glassman has shown and knows how to teach iron cross and other more advanced ring skills, but for some reason they haven't made it into the culminating event of the competition he created. Hmmmm. CrossFit hardly biases gymnastics. It is the worst bastardization of all the disciplines, and I do agree there could be slightly longer endurance events, but they probably wouldn't make a difference in the results, because recovery solely tests the aerobic system, and there's plenty of that going on already. Most of the biases that currently exist stem from the precise measure-ability of those biased movements/tools as compared to more diverse skills with more difficult standards for execution.

I dream of the day when 360 backflips, airflares, and bar/ring dismounts are a part of the Games. But then I wake up and realize this is CrossFit in its infancy still, no one is that good at anything yet, yes even weightlifting, and as it stands the competition they've created is freakin' amazing. I see most of the barbed critiques that go on in hear as projected excuses not to train one's own weaknesses. And boredom, yes probably boredom.
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Last edited by Mauricio Leal : 08-06-2011 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 08-06-2011, 03:10 AM   #128
Paul Coomans
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
Really? I want you to think about that for a moment. Of all the disciplines and bastardizations of said disciplines, how well do you think the best Games competitors would fair in a gymnastics competition? You know, the ones Glassman specialized in where people fly through the air like ninjas. You do realize that pull-ups, walking on your hands, and muscle-ups earn you only blank stares in such a setting. Glassman has shown and knows how to teach iron cross and other more advanced ring skills, but for some reason they haven't made it into the culminating event of the competition he created. Hmmmm. CrossFit hardly biases gymnastics. It is the worst bastardization of all the disciplines, and I do agree there could be slightly longer endurance events, but they probably wouldn't make a difference in the results, because recovery solely tests the aerobic system, and there's plenty of that going on already. Most of the biases that currently exist stem from the precise measure-ability of those biased movements/tools as compared to more diverse skills with more difficult standards for execution.
Indeed! Because of muscle-ups and handstand push-ups the competition is biased towards gymnastics? What? These are very basic movements that allow you to demonstrate you have control over your body.

Same with the lifts. Because of 100kg front squats the competition is biased towards weighlifting? Again what? These weights allow you to demonstrate you can handle external loads efficiently. A rather important part of fitness if you ask me.

I wouldn't mind a longer run at all. It was a great event in 2009. But it is certainly not the only way to test aerobic endurance. That was tested plenty this year.
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:55 AM   #129
Michael Kelley
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Re: Final games thoughts

Those are only "basic movements" to a gymnast. They are instant eliminators for nearly every crossfitter in nearly every box. The day you start requiring people to do stunts like flips and iron crosses in the Games is the day the Games jump the shark. Part of the appeal of crossfit is that regular people can train to become competitive at it with a reasonable amount of time applied to the task. Add a couple dozen more specialized tasks and you destroy that.
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Old 08-06-2011, 09:02 AM   #130
Paul Coomans
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Those are only "basic movements" to a gymnast. They are instant eliminators for nearly every crossfitter in nearly every box. The day you start requiring people to do stunts like flips and iron crosses in the Games is the day the Games jump the shark. Part of the appeal of crossfit is that regular people can train to become competitive at it with a reasonable amount of time applied to the task. Add a couple dozen more specialized tasks and you destroy that.
They are basic movements anyone should be able to master. We are kind of making the same point. Including these movements is not creating a bias towards gymnastics. I do not want or expect to see advanced ring progressions with a somersault finish at the games.
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