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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 03-06-2007, 08:26 PM   #31
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"I am an absolute boot at Oly Lifting (ask Greg, he's seen me - I suck)"

you're just new to it. you're strong as . give it time, grasshopper.

actually dale is a great example of a dude who has loads of brute strength but whose o-lifting technique has yet to catch up. when it does, he's going to be snatching twice as much as my lame .

"seems to be just below the back end of the trapezius"

pretty much. first, buy rippetoe's book Starting Strength. And read it. For now, check this out:

http://www.****************.com/images/squatposter.jpg
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:57 PM   #32
David Aguasca
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this is possibly the most interesting discussion i've read in a long, long time.

thanks, greg and rip for freely giving us your thoughts on the matter!
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:18 PM   #33
Mark Rippetoe
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Just saw this above by Larry: "Great discussion, I usually like to step out of the way during these, but I just read an interesting article by Glenn Pendlay and he argues, at the elite level, strength in Olympic Lifting is not the issue, technique is. Apparently the Europeans believe we focus too much on strength and not enough on technique work."

I suppose this would mean that Casey B. is just as strong as Rezazedeh, but that that his technique is not as good. I doubt very much that this is true.
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:37 PM   #34
Veronica Carpenter
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Very true, Mark. I think we lag behind the Europeans in good doctors that know how to cycle the "supplements"
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:49 AM   #35
Larry Lindenman
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Veronica, I was thinking the same thing!!!
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:28 PM   #36
Steve Serrano
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I think I just got 2.5 units of CE credit somewhere for reading these posts. Thanks folks; great stuff.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:05 PM   #37
Lincoln Brigham
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I have great faith in the ablity of US coaches to teach athletes the lifts. I have much less faith in their ability to recruit for weightlifting. Almost all of those top 1% athletes go to other sports.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:54 PM   #38
Anthony Myers
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you go where the money is Lincoln

I'm amazed my question has come to this...
Everett and Rip battling it out!

Thanks for letting us in on the discussion guys.

I'm glad Coach Rip is on my side :banana:
Posterior chain strength for the win!
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:00 PM   #39
Gabe Rinaldi
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Nice thread! I just read the whole thing right now. To summarize (mostly to make sure I understand the points):

Rip

low bar back squat for all squats as it leads to better overall strength and positions are the same as the pull off the ground

already doing front squats to develop strength to come out of the front squat portion of cleans

strength is a limiting factor for many U.S. OWLers

Greg

high bar back squat is more similar to squat position coming out of clean - and allows for more weight than front squats so it is a good variation

do clean and snatch pulls to develop pulling strength if needed

OWL performance is limited by technique and strength, but simply adding strength may not improve competitive performance

My thoughts after reading this discussion:

Looking at research on barbell trajectories during the Olympic lifts as broken down by different countries and genders we see that the U.S. does not typically have what many weightlifting (meaning OWL) coaches consider optimal technique. The rationale is that we have less practice as it is less popular in the U.S.

Watching numerous Ironmind training hall video tapes of elite lifters from all over the world I don't recall any of them performing low bar back squats in training. If they performed back squats it was always high bar style.

Whenever I've heard this arguement before it has always been a powerlifter (or coach who spent most of his time powerlifting) suggesting OWLers do low bar squats. I heard Louie Simmons at a seminar with Dr. Siff around 2001 (give or take a year) in Las Vegas and they had the exact same argument (academic debate). Louie was basically saying the same thing as Rip and Siff was saying the same thing as Greg. This is meant as no disrespect on either side - I just find it interesting.

I believe both methods can produce results - even very elite results. My personal opinion is that a given style may be more beneficial for a given lifter at a given phase in their training. However, in most cases, I'll train an OWL using high bar squats.

For what it's worth, I'm weaker than both Rip and Greg and since I'm training for a singlespeed mountain bike race in about a month I've only squatted a few times in the last few months. One day I did low bar box squats and the other day I did high bar squats.

Cheers,
Gabe
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Old 03-09-2007, 01:13 PM   #40
Mark Rippetoe
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Gabe: This is a valid observation: "Looking at research on barbell trajectories during the Olympic lifts as broken down by different countries and genders we see that the U.S. does not typically have what many weightlifting (meaning OWL) coaches consider optimal technique. The rationale is that we have less practice as it is less popular in the U.S."

But it ignores the fact that a very important aspect of correct technique is being strong enough to efficiently display it, since getting into the correct positions to execute that technique requires the strength to do so and to hold the position while the technique is executed. This is how isometric and slow concentric strength are relevant to any technically-dependent explosive sport. Arguing that US lifters have less-proficient technique than the countries that regularly beat the hell out of us is a secondary observation, since their lifters quite regularly pull our C&J weights off the floor on their 1st attempt snatches.

And this... :

"Watching numerous Ironmind training hall video tapes of elite lifters from all over the world I don't recall any of them performing low bar back squats in training. If they performed back squats it was always high bar style."

... is still an ad hominem argument, not an explanation of why high-bar squats are better than low-bar squats. I have not read Louie's position on this, and Dr. Siff is usually over my head -- and usually correct. These are just my observations, having coached both OL and PL people for many years. That having been said, I have the greatest respect for your experience and coaching ability. And to say that you are weaker than me is to blatantly admit that you don't know how pitifully weak I am right now.

Rip
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