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Old 09-16-2006, 07:23 AM   #41
Jesse Woody
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Yes, this was along the lines of the idea that I was tossing around. I can perform relatively well at metabolic-conditioning tests, but my most alluring goals are strength skills; 2.5x bodyweight deadlift, 2-2.5x bodyweight squat, bodyweight and above overhead press, 1.25x bodyweight snatch, 1.5x bodyweight clean & Jerk, split planche, front lever, and a perfect L-sit to handstand Press.

Following the general concept for the ME-Blackbox, I was hoping to focus most of my efforts on these skills, hitting up Coach Burgener's WOD along with some specific heavy powerlifting and some randomly mixed gymnastic skills. Then, as an added supplement, add 2 or 3 days of fast and powerful met-con, Diane, Fran or Elizibeth style, and some sprint-specific days. These, and any longer effort thrown in for variety would occur post-carb-load, with the heavy-ish efforts and skill work being rotated in towards the end of the week.

Maybe I'll call it the "Max-MetCon-Blackbox" with lower-volume conditioning work thrown into a dedicated strength, power and speed program...
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:22 AM   #42
Chris Forbis
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Kevin-

I've been dipping my toe into a metabolic-like diet the past week. I've felt tremendously better on zero fruit thus far. I think this might be the key for why I have been unable to get below 10% BF in the past despite excellent dietary discipline.

I plan on using sweet potatoes for my carb up... that is today so we will see how that goes.
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Old 09-16-2006, 11:03 AM   #43
Mike ODonnell
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Kevin,

The T-dawg refernce was from t-nation (I can hear all the booos and hissess right now..ha). I think it made some good points...because it was basically a version of the AD/MD...the only real difference was that they always go for the post workout drink/meal theory.

From what I have seen personally...I feel better all day with the lower carb vs a zone approach...but I don't want to go all day with no carbs otherwise I feel myself "bonking" in the workouts that require more strength. I have tinkered with post workout drinks..meals..whatever...I find the high GI meals give me fat instead of muscle...so I quit them...now it's just a carb/protein meal instead using whole foods...I'm playing with the numbers to find what works with my body best. My job is not something I need to be active all day long...so like Rob mentioned above, I have no idea whether this approach is better for someone that may need the explosiveness in their line of work (military, police)vs someone who just needs enough glycogen for a workout.

But since I am not Zone all day getting glycogen...I would think I need the post workout to recover quick enough for the next day workout...otherwise the muscle glycogen never gets reloaded until the reload days. Who knows...but I guess people need to judge and try to see what works for them. I guess the trick is how many carbs does one really need per day for maximum performance and does timing (post workout) really enhance/speed up glycogen replacement?
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Old 09-16-2006, 11:42 AM   #44
Kevin McKay
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I must admit I was really sceptical dropping my carbs this low but am amazed with how I feel 6 days in. I am thinking I will eat 1/2 my daily 30 carbs prior and 1/2 post workout and see how that works. I am guessing 1 hr before and 1 hr after. That way my muscles will not gas out mid workout and recover faster after?
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Old 09-16-2006, 01:53 PM   #45
Robert Wolf
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Jesse-
It sounds like a good plan. Something to keep in mind however is that higher end strength work is the domain of the type 2b fibers and large motor neurons. The 2b fibers benefit from long rest periods and tend to convert to 2a fibers when exposed to lactate. 2b fibers and their associated motor units are the real powerhouses with these higher end strength movements. Related to another thread, if one builds high levels of strength first and then grafts on the metabolic conditioning later we see athletes at the top of the CF heap.

Me friend in Israel, Ido Portal has a 3xbw dl, 5-8 planch pushups 1 arm chins and some other nifty stuff. Within a 3 weeks of CF style training he posted:
3:05 fran, 4:12 Diane, low 9min Helen. he and his students also perform WODs liek 130 back flips for time (~20 min).

He follows a Paleo/MD eating schedule and this allows him to do this higher level strength work and 4-6 capoeira sessions per week.

Related to something Mike said:
Low rep strength work does not require glycogen.
This is where high-tension long rest period training in the <5rep range fits in during lower glycogen days.

Even on the higher glycogen days however, if one is really concerned with developing elite levels of strength, either for its own sake or as platform for elite leve strength endurance (CrossFit)lactate producing met-cons may be at odds with the goal of developing maximum strength.

As an asside, I think a little above zone carb levels for the carb up is fine. Huge carb loads seem to have quite a down side with regards to "carb hang-over".

(Message edited by rwolf on September 16, 2006)
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Old 09-16-2006, 02:33 PM   #46
Jesse Woody
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Excellent point that I hadn't considered. So when are you bringing Ido over to train? I'll try to hop on a plane to meet him when it happens!
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Old 09-16-2006, 03:51 PM   #47
Travis Mulroy
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I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread. Tons of interesting and useful stuff. Thanks everyone!
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Old 09-16-2006, 05:09 PM   #48
Mike ODonnell
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This is worth $1000000 in itself...from Rob:
"if one builds high levels of strength first and then grafts on the metabolic conditioning later we see athletes at the top of the CF heap."

Nice to know that there are elite strength people who can get by on Paleo/MD.

I agree...excellent thread!
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:26 PM   #49
Robert Wolf
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Jesse-
I'd hoped that Ido would be out in july but when Haifa became the target fo missle attacks it became very difficult for Ido and his students. He has a fledgling blog here:
http://idoportal.blogspot.com/

Check it out and pester him to share his knowledge with us!

Thanks for the Props on this stuff! I'm working on another Power Bias article for the PM looking at how to build this elite strength base and more ways to tweak classic met-cons to accentuate power output.
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Old 09-18-2006, 06:57 PM   #50
Kevin McKay
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What is the word on pre workout carbs for metcon stuff when doing a strict 30c a day MD?
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