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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 05-09-2009, 09:17 PM   #11
Mike Humphries
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Re: No Massages

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Well, that's not true which was why I wanted you to clarify.

1. H+ are byproducts of carbohydrate oxidation as well as ATP -> ADP + P dephosphorylation.

2. Stoichiometrically, there is no acid produced or needed in conversion of pyruvic acid to lactic acid.

3. Yes, lactic acid is an intermediate metabolite... not waste product. Although accumulation can be thought of as anaerobic waste I suppose if you want to measure intensity of exercise.
i was gonna say this exact thing but you totally beat me to it
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:53 AM   #12
Richard Foote
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Re: No Massages

Wow. I hope I'm not the only one shaking my head right now...

I need to dumb it back down to "I'm sore after 3 days of kicking my own ***, and I dig a good massage."

It's a bonus being married to a massage therapist.
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:58 AM   #13
Samantha Aurelio
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Re: No Massages

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Who cares? Massages feel awesome.
yessiree!
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:37 AM   #14
Thomas Bailly
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Re: No Massages

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Originally Posted by Stuart Buck View Post
New study here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0507164405.htm wfs Not vouching for it, as there are no details about the methodology, but the finding is interesting:
so....lactic acid doesn't cause DOMS and can even be beneficial?
so...the "removal" of lactic acid is not "necessary".
so...the basis of the study is flawed? ie the "myth" part is more about lactic acid?

I'm curious as to the different types of massage used,I'm assuming that since it was post exercise it was some kind of sports massage. More beneficial study would have been to measure "recovery markers" such as ROM, heart rate.

I'll still gladly be using massage as part of my program.
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:43 PM   #15
Steven Low
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Re: No Massages

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so....lactic acid doesn't cause DOMS and can even be beneficial?
Lac is not the cause of DOMS... muscle damage is the cause of DOMS and we already established a couple posts up that most muscle damage is due to eccentric contraction of the muscle + acid + some other stuff.

As far as beneficial I wouldn't say that... but the muscles do have lac shuttles which push some of it out into the blood stream where it goes to the liver and is reconverted into glucose in the Cori cycle. The glucose is then shipped back into the blood stream where it goes to the muscles.

So technically, as your body becomes more fit this process improves which means it's beneficial in that sense... but lots of lac accumulations means intensity is high -- nothing more nothing less.

Quote:
so...the "removal" of lactic acid is not "necessary".
It is necessary during exercise as described above.

After exercise, it is necessary but the body does the process on it's own within probably 10-20 mins after exercise is completed. For example, after your heart rate + excess oxygen consumption has slowed down the body doesn't need the excess energy from oxidation to keep up with energy demands which means the muscles have already removed most of their metabolic waste products.

If you have an event VERY SOON after, then it may be beneficial to get the lac removed much more quickly... but the body can do it fairly efficient anyway.

Since it's not the cause of DOMS or failure during exercise it isn't necessary to remove it especially if you don't have an event soon after.

Quote:
so...the basis of the study is flawed? ie the "myth" part is more about lactic acid?
There's lots of myths about lactic acid stemming from bad research in the 60s or whatever.

The study itself isn't necessarily flawed because we are talking about improving blood flow.

That's the major concern. But their premise for removing lac b/c of DOMS and whatever is definitely incorrect.

Quote:
I'm curious as to the different types of massage used,I'm assuming that since it was post exercise it was some kind of sports massage. More beneficial study would have been to measure "recovery markers" such as ROM, heart rate.

I'll still gladly be using massage as part of my program.
Me too.
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:51 PM   #16
Thomas Bailly
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Re: No Massages

Steven, thanks for always clarifying things in the cleanest scientific sense. It is very much appreciated.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:03 PM   #17
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: No Massages

Just out of curiosity - does that mean that H+ has no effect on muscular damage, and if so, what exactly is causing the damage that leads to DOMS? Is it trauma, as in the muscle is physically being torn - particularly during eccentric contractions? No argument about lactic acid being correlated to high intensity (just so we agree that it doesn't cause half of the things that the average fitgeek thinks it does).
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:36 PM   #18
Steven Low
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Re: No Massages

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Originally Posted by Andrew H. Meador View Post
Just out of curiosity - does that mean that H+ has no effect on muscular damage, and if so, what exactly is causing the damage that leads to DOMS? Is it trauma, as in the muscle is physically being torn - particularly during eccentric contractions? No argument about lactic acid being correlated to high intensity (just so we agree that it doesn't cause half of the things that the average fitgeek thinks it does).
There's a nice book out on this called:

Skeletal muscle damage and repair wfs (Human Kinetics publisher) by Peter M. Tiidus

You can take a look at a preview in google books. The whole book is pretty damn good though (although unfortunately pricey like $60 since it's comprehensive)... just look at the chapter list:

Part I. Physiology of Muscle Damage and Repair
Chapter 1. Physiology and Mechanisms of Skeletal Muscle Damage
Chapter 2. Human and Animal Experimental Muscle Injury Models
Chapter 3. Histological, Chemical, and Functional Manifestations of Muscle Damage
Chapter 4. Neutrophils and Macrophages in Muscle Damage and Repair
Chapter 5. Muscle Soreness and Damage and the Repeated-Bout Effect
Chapter 6. Satellite Cells and Muscle Repair
Chapter 7. Emerging Molecular Trends in Muscle Damage Research

Part II. Muscle Damage and Repair in Applied Situations
Chapter 8. Changes With Aging
Chapter 9. Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy
Chapter 10. Estrogen and Gender Effects
Chapter 11. Diabetes
Chapter 12. Workplace and Other Overuse Injuries
Chapter 13. Muscle Function During Human Gait
Chapter 14. Overtraining Injuries in Athletic Populations
Chapter 15. Intersubject Variability in Developing Exertional Muscle Damage

Part III. Treatments and Interventions in Muscle Damage and Repair
Chapter 16. Massage Therapy
Chapter 17. Ultrasound
Chapter 18. Physical Therapy and Related Interventions
Chapter 19. Antioxidant Supplementation
Chapter 20. Therapies for Myofascial Trigger Points
Chapter 21. Hyperbaric Oxygen and Drug Therapies


--------------------------

Page 5 has a nice chart on eccentric induced damage:

(1) sarcomere disruption, (2) cytoskeletal disruption, (3)membrane disruption, (4) loss of calcium homeostasis, (5) excitation-contraction coupling impairment, (6) loss of force production

H+ is obviously a competitive inhibitor of calcium homeostasis (both are positive ions), and as an acid can also facilitate breakdown of proteins and carbohydrates + enzyme disruption.

1,2,4 are on the level of sarcomere/myofibrils (inside muscle fibers)... 3,5,6 are kind of on the macro level of muscle fibers or above as far as impairment goes.

Book also mentions oxidative damage to all of the above.


For a little on eccentric muscle damage you can search google for the "sarcomere popping" hypothesis.

As an aside, the reason why Oly lifters can do a lot of high volume heavy lifting is because there is not really much eccentrics in their training.
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Last edited by Steven Low : 05-11-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:06 AM   #19
Damon Stewart
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Re: No Massages

It's so good to have you back on the boards, thanks for the great info.
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Old 05-13-2009, 06:53 PM   #20
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: No Massages

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
As an aside, the reason why Oly lifters can do a lot of high volume heavy lifting is because there is not really much eccentrics in their training.
I understand the bit about sarcomere popping, but this I don't - isn't the catch an eccentric contraction, followed by the stretch-shortening cycle and a concentric contraction? This applies more for the squat versions than power or split versions.
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