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Old 09-09-2012, 06:31 PM   #11
Brian Seelos
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

I agree that a vegetarian diet should get you the results you are looking for. You should probably just adjust your macronutrient ratios and look at your nutrient timing more closely. When you eat is just as important as what you eat. Here is a link to nutrient timing info.
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article...trientUNM.html
If you do want to get rid of whey there are lots of options. I am vegan and use hemp protein, pea protein and brown rice protein. Brown rice has an amino acid profile close to whey.

Hope this helps.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:59 AM   #12
Paul Coomans
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

Don't just throw out protein shakes because they're not on the paleo menu.

Whatever happened to just using a little common sense to establish your diet?
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:17 AM   #13
Brendan McNamar
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

The experience of one of my coaches and my mom is they feel much better now eating meat then when they were vegetarian.

I expect you will have the same results. People keep defending that diet but it is just inferior to an animal based diet for health and performance.

Buy quality grass fed meat and enjoy. You will feel much better assuming you get rid of the grains and sugars as well.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:19 AM   #14
John C Corona
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

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Originally Posted by Brendan McNamar View Post
The experience of one of my coaches and my mom is they feel much better now eating meat then when they were vegetarian.

I expect you will have the same results. People keep defending that diet but it is just inferior to an animal based diet for health and performance.

Buy quality grass fed meat and enjoy. You will feel much better assuming you get rid of the grains and sugars as well.
I was going to let this go, but have trouble doing so. Your statement is simply not true. Ive been called out on these boards for saying things that I knew nothing about, well, this is your turn. "I've been told by so and so", or, "I've read this blog, and they said that". My brother had a terrible vegetarian diet of pizza and mac n cheese, you think he was healthy or felt good, no way. He feels better now cause the darn burger has more nutrients than his pizza did. I, on the other hand, did it right, and consumed a very wide variety of plants, felt amazing, similar strength numbers to now. I feel others just dont get enough nutrients, and therefore markers will decline. The body loves plants, trust me, you just gotta get enough. I now will go a few weeks without meat, but eat tons of sprouts. I've learned that sprout protein (or whatever's in that stuff) is so powerfull, I feel like a million bucks on sprouts. But I just love baby back rips or brisket too much, and after about 2-3 years, decided to live for taste, rather than for principle. You dont have to believe me, its all good, as there are plenty of successful professional athletes that follow vegetarian/veganism. Just dont claim its inferior from heresay. If you are a trainer, you sometimes might have to embrace a clients beliefs, and if you find they are vegan, then I say, leave it there, just push a wide variety, make sure they get enough nutrients. IMO.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:53 AM   #15
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

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Originally Posted by Brendan McNamar View Post
People keep defending that diet but it is just inferior to an animal based diet for health and performance.
The American Dietetic Association (wfs) says otherwise.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

"Vegetarian diets are often associated with a number of health advantages, including lower blood cholesterol levels, lower risk of heart disease, lower blood pressure levels, and lower risk of hypertension and type 2 diabetes. Vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index (BMI) and lower overall cancer rates. Vegetarian diets tend to be lower in saturated fat and cholesterol, and have higher levels of dietary fiber, magnesium and potassium, vitamins C and E, folate, carotenoids, flavonoids, and other phytochemicals. These nutritional differences may explain some of the health advantages of those following a varied, balanced vegetarian diet."
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:33 PM   #16
Andrew N. Casey
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
The American Dietetic Association (wfs) says otherwise.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

"Vegetarian diets are often associated with a number of health advantages, including lower blood cholesterol levels, lower risk of heart disease, lower blood pressure levels, and lower risk of hypertension and type 2 diabetes. Vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index (BMI) and lower overall cancer rates. Vegetarian diets tend to be lower in saturated fat and cholesterol, and have higher levels of dietary fiber, magnesium and potassium, vitamins C and E, folate, carotenoids, flavonoids, and other phytochemicals. These nutritional differences may explain some of the health advantages of those following a varied, balanced vegetarian diet."
two questions... 1) for all of the above statements - compared to what? if compared to the "normal" american diet, then couldn't the same be said for paleo? 2) how does any of the address the issue of performance?

i ask this because i always see diets talking about the benefits (whether paleo, vegan, zone, high carb, low carb, etc) but it seems they always seem to tout the benefits and advantages compared to the typical junk diet. i think most on this board that are taking the time to look for answers are already committed to not eating the normal junk diet, but are instead trying to compare these types of diets against one another to find the best option for health and performance. i don't think there is any diet that almost any of these diets is better than having no plan at all and eating lots of processed junk, fast food, etc. however, that doesn't mean that one or the other type of diet plan isn't better than the others. additionally, it seems that lots of these studies from these organizations (and i appreciate that you always show sources of info with studies and such) talk almost only about health factors such as cancer rates, BMI (which means nothing), diabetes, life expectancy, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc, etc, but they almost never address issues of performance. so when a person ask about the best diet for performance, is it useful or fair or relevant to post such studies, and if so, how and why?
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:53 PM   #17
John C Corona
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

Andrew, I think I know what you're saying. I myself have read too many veg books geared to health, and too few geared to performance. Brendan Braziers Thrive diet is awesome insite to his path towards plants only, its been a while, but I'm pretty sure he's a pro cyclist. Understand though, that health is 1st, then performance, to me at least. You are right that if we eat clean, no matter what diet you swing to, your performance AND health can be good. I dunno, I just think health and performance are very closely related. Studies on diet are hard to do, period. Now mix someones performance to have to study at the same time. Probably rough, but Im sure Darryl has some studies for us. In regards to vegetarianism, are the shaolin monk's demonstrations of the 10 facets of fitness not enough for ya? I wonder what they could do with a barbell, besides bend it with their finger tips.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:07 PM   #18
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew N. Casey View Post
two questions... 1) for all of the above statements - compared to what? if compared to the "normal" american diet, then couldn't the same be said for paleo?
A well planned vegetarian/vegan diet will, generally speaking, be lower in saturated fat and cholesterol, and higher in fibre and a number of micronutrients and phytochemicals than both omnivorous diets based on conventional healthy eating guidelines and low-carb, high-fat fad diets like "Paleo".

Quote:
2) how does any of the address the issue of performance?
There are some potential problems that vegetarian/vegan athletes need to be aware of and these are addressed in the links I posted here (wfs). However, these problems are not insurmountable and there is no evidence that athletic performance is impaired in any way by eating a well planned vegetarian/vegan diet.

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when a person ask about the best diet for performance, is it useful or fair or relevant to post such studies, and if so, how and why?
Because science always beats anecdotal evidence.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:59 PM   #19
Andrew N. Casey
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

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Originally Posted by John C Corona View Post
Andrew, I think I know what you're saying. I myself have read too many veg books geared to health, and too few geared to performance. Brendan Braziers Thrive diet is awesome insite to his path towards plants only, its been a while, but I'm pretty sure he's a pro cyclist. Understand though, that health is 1st, then performance, to me at least. You are right that if we eat clean, no matter what diet you swing to, your performance AND health can be good. I dunno, I just think health and performance are very closely related. Studies on diet are hard to do, period. Now mix someones performance to have to study at the same time. Probably rough, but Im sure Darryl has some studies for us. In regards to vegetarianism, are the shaolin monk's demonstrations of the 10 facets of fitness not enough for ya? I wonder what they could do with a barbell, besides bend it with their finger tips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
A well planned vegetarian/vegan diet will, generally speaking, be lower in saturated fat and cholesterol, and higher in fibre and a number of micronutrients and phytochemicals than both omnivorous diets based on conventional healthy eating guidelines and low-carb, high-fat fad diets like "Paleo".



There are some potential problems that vegetarian/vegan athletes need to be aware of and these are addressed in the links I posted here (wfs). However, these problems are not insurmountable and there is no evidence that athletic performance is impaired in any way by eating a well planned vegetarian/vegan diet.



Because science always beats anecdotal evidence.
thanks guys. i get where ya'll are coming from. the one thing i will point out is that it is a false asssumption to state that paleo is automatically a low-carb high-fat diet. not true. perfectly possible to eat basically any diet (macro -guidelines) while being paleo. paleo is merely the types of foods that can or can't be eaten, not the amounts that have to be eaten. alot of people use paleo as an excuse and call it paleo but then just eat alot of fatty meat and protein while getting very little tubers, fruit, veggies. that is not paleo at all, or at least not what i have ever seen any of the paleo books or experts recommend. (and alot of people do the same with "vegetarian" too, as stated earlier, by eating lots of junk as long as it contains no meat. "hooray, coca-cola is vegan!") paleo as recommended is alot more than just cutting grain, and would probably closely resemble many vegan diets with tons of fruit and veggies, except that it would include a few ounces of meat with each meal. anyway, this is just an observation, not a defense, as i think the actual concept of paleo is flawed, but i do think it is a good way to get people to eat unprocessed food.

anyway, as to the actual statements i understand what ya'll are saying and i think alot of truth. i think with the health vs performance, they are both related for sure, but one does not always equal the other. as to which one is more important, that is a matter of personal choice and opinion. i think many people would be willing to trade a little health or a few years in order to have better performance or to look better now, and many are not. also in regards to performance, i think it also depends on what you are trying to perform at. i can see goals and tasks for which replacing meat with fruit might not hurt and might even help, like running marathons or cycling. but i also think adding meat will help with the person trying to build maximum muscle.

is there going to be a major difference in performance or health for the average person that does crossfit for GPP and simply wants to look decent, feel good, be able to enjoy life, and stay healthy for life? probably not. any well planned healthy lifestyle, exercise, and diet will probably work just fine for the vast of peoples goals and ability.

Last edited by Andrew N. Casey : 09-15-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:49 AM   #20
David Meverden
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Re: Vegetarian going Paelo :/...nervous!

I agree with Darryl that you can get a good body on a vegetarian or vegan diet, but that doesn't mean they are the easiest route and they probably are not the best route if you want strength and power.

But what about all of Darryl's links? Well, I actually sat down and looked through them like this afternoon and you know what they say? That a vegetarian/vegan diet should, in theory, be fine. Why? Because vegetarians can get required nutrients from vegetarian food sources and many people don't need as much protein as they think. That's it. They don't examine actual performance in anything that requires strength and power. But don't take my word for it, lets hear from Darryl's OWN LINKS:
From the American Dietetic .pdf he linked:
Quote:
"Well-planned vegetarian diets appear to effectively support parameters that influence athletic performance, although studies on this population are limited"
From the Australian Institute of Sports page he linked:
Quote:
"Currently it is unclear as to whether a vegetarian diet will improve athletic performance. "
Even from his VeganHealth.org link, an obviously biased source:
Quote:
"Unfortunately, there are no studies looking directly at vegan weightlifters"
His Nutritional Considerations for Vegetarian Athletes links asserts that there is no performance difference but there are only two referenced performance studies and those focus on endurance athletes.

So, Darryl's links add up to "it SHOULD be the same because they can get enough protein and stuff, but we aren't sure". But if my initial point says "we aren't sure" why would I then say that these diet are probably not optimal for strength and power athletes? Because of hormonal effects and some limited direct studies. Vegetarian diets, or traits often associated with vegetarian diets such as low saturated fat, low overall fat and high fiber, have been shown to produce lower testosterone levels. Vegan diets interestingly don't seem to produce much different free testosterone levels but they do have higher levels of estrogenous hormones and lower levels of the powerfully anabolic IGF-1. These hormonal changes may actually be good for long term health, but aren't good if you want strength, power, or muscle.

Sources:
Dietary and hormonal interrelationships among vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men.

Effect of a vegetarian diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women


Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise

Decrease of serum total and free testosterone during a low-fat high-fibre diet

Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores

The study below, unfortunately not on athletes, directly found an omnivorous diets superior for muscle growth.
Effects of an omnivorous diet compared with a lactoovovegetarian diet on resistance-training-induced changes in body composition and skeletal muscle in older men

Conclusion: Could some of these effects be mitigated with careful dietary planning and dietary supplementation? Possibly. But, when it comes to strength and power development, we aren't sure. Consequently, if I'm coaching someone I'm going to recommend they fail safe and eat some animals.

---All links safe for work or school---
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