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Old 05-19-2011, 03:04 PM   #21
Jared Ashley
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Re: Arizona...

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Originally Posted by Melody Glasgow View Post
While I technically agree with the point you're trying to make that fining groups of people based on someone's opinion of what is unhealthy is going too far, I think obese people that will end up languishing in hospitals for years before they die cost society a significant amount of money.
Smokers pay very high taxes on the cigarettes they buy, drinkers pay high taxes on the alcohol they buy, drivers pay taxes to register their vehicles and pay taxes on fuel. Most sedentary jobs are associated with health insurance. Military, firefighters, and police officers definitely have health insurance. Where is the tax on fast food and soda pop? Twinkies and candy?

It seems that the other vices are associated with significant cost to the consumer while junk foods push all of the long term cost onto society.
those vices are taxed, but the proceeds don't go into the healthcare system (or when they do, it's only a fraction and indirectly).

sedentary workers, military ect generally have insurance yes, but should their premiums be higher simply because of their chosen career? higher premiums is the same as a fine.

Do you really want taxes on soda and twinkies? Those taxes also would be used for non-healthcare purposes. Personally I pay enough tax as it is.

Here's another thought experiment: Take two people, one obese with diabetes, one fit, active, and healthy.

The obese person is likley to spend a lot of time in the hospital, need a lot of meds, ect, once they get to 60 or so, and will decline rapidly and die of a heart attack by say 75. They'll probably live mostly independently until their last few months or years.

The fit person may get to 75 before they're ever in a hospital, and then less frequently, but at 80 they may start to succumb to dementia. They may live to 100 with assisted living, then a group home, finally progressing to a nursing home and finally total care for a couple years before they finally die.

In the end, which was more expensive to society? It's a tough call.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:08 AM   #22
John McCord
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Re: Arizona...

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Everyone in this thread should remember that it's not unusual for top Crossfitters to have BMIs in the "overweight" category.
Katherine
Overweight!, Last time I looked at that chart in the Med Group I was "Obese".

Of course, I'm in the military - this is all free for me.
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:39 PM   #23
Melody Glasgow
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Ashley View Post
those vices are taxed, but the proceeds don't go into the healthcare system (or when they do, it's only a fraction and indirectly).

sedentary workers, military ect generally have insurance yes, but should their premiums be higher simply because of their chosen career? higher premiums is the same as a fine.

Do you really want taxes on soda and twinkies? Those taxes also would be used for non-healthcare purposes. Personally I pay enough tax as it is.

Here's another thought experiment: Take two people, one obese with diabetes, one fit, active, and healthy.

The obese person is likley to spend a lot of time in the hospital, need a lot of meds, ect, once they get to 60 or so, and will decline rapidly and die of a heart attack by say 75. They'll probably live mostly independently until their last few months or years.

The fit person may get to 75 before they're ever in a hospital, and then less frequently, but at 80 they may start to succumb to dementia. They may live to 100 with assisted living, then a group home, finally progressing to a nursing home and finally total care for a couple years before they finally die.

In the end, which was more expensive to society? It's a tough call.
I definitely do want taxes for twinkies, soda, macdonald's, and all poisons like it. I used to be a 1-2 pack a day smoker. You know what my biggest motivator for quitting was? I couldn't afford it anymore after they started taxing the **** out of it.

30% of our country is obese because crap food is cheaper than healthy food. The crap food is pretty much paid for twice by the American taxpayer - the first is corn and soy subsidies, and then again when we have to pay the Medicare costs for the millions of sick people that are the result.

30% of persons in this country, a large percentage of which cannot afford health care (they can't even afford to buy vegetables), will spend the last 20-30 years of their life requiring expensive medical procedures for diseases that are the direct result of eating fast food and other nasties. All these procedures will fall to Medicare/Medicaid.

I say tax it and put it towards health care. Just my two cents.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:04 PM   #24
Jarrod Henry
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Re: Arizona...

I think everyone in this country should go and attempt to get personal insurance, underwritten for themselves, with blood test + full questionnaire...

Then, when the quote comes back (and hopefully after you've recovered from the heart attack), you'll see that .. yes. We all pay for everyone's health care anyway. Might as well try to make it cheaper.

Just MHO. Dunno if I agree with the Government doing that, but definitely think something needs to be done.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:14 PM   #25
Jared Ashley
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Re: Arizona...

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Originally Posted by Jarrod Henry View Post
I think everyone in this country should go and attempt to get personal insurance, underwritten for themselves, with blood test + full questionnaire...

Then, when the quote comes back (and hopefully after you've recovered from the heart attack), you'll see that .. yes. We all pay for everyone's health care anyway. Might as well try to make it cheaper.

Just MHO. Dunno if I agree with the Government doing that, but definitely think something needs to be done.
Every other first-world nation on earth does it cheaper in terms of healthcare dollars spent per capita per year (some spend less than half per capita), and most of them have better outcomes statistically.

Although it's doing it clumsily, the US government is one of the few forces that's working to make care less expensive overall (by demanding improved outcomes, greater efficiency, and the use of treatments with higher efficacy) rather than simply working to improve insurance company bottom lines by denying care, reducing benefits, and raising premiums.

I've lived under the US system and the Canadian system. I'm sad to say the US system is not only inferior but wildly, astonishingly inferior. Don't get me wrong, I love this country and choose to live here (I'm a dual citizen so I can prettymuch do what I want) but the health system is a compromise. I'm willing to put up with our terrible system in return for (primarily) better weather. Aside from those two items, the two countries are virtually identical.
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:50 PM   #26
Jonathan Vechet
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Re: Arizona...

Health care is making our society weak.
The weak, and stupid, are allowed to live longer than they should.
Overpopulation occurs.
The future will be a combination of Idiocracy and Soylent Green.
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:44 AM   #27
Dave Traeger
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Glasgow View Post
I definitely do want taxes for twinkies, soda, macdonald's, and all poisons like it. I used to be a 1-2 pack a day smoker. You know what my biggest motivator for quitting was? I couldn't afford it anymore after they started taxing the **** out of it.

30% of our country is obese because crap food is cheaper than healthy food. The crap food is pretty much paid for twice by the American taxpayer - the first is corn and soy subsidies, and then again when we have to pay the Medicare costs for the millions of sick people that are the result.

30% of persons in this country, a large percentage of which cannot afford health care (they can't even afford to buy vegetables), will spend the last 20-30 years of their life requiring expensive medical procedures for diseases that are the direct result of eating fast food and other nasties. All these procedures will fall to Medicare/Medicaid.

I say tax it and put it towards health care. Just my two cents.
Our health system in Australia is extremely different to the one in the US but I agree they should do what you're suggesting there (and here). Let me know when you're running and I'll vote for you
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:12 AM   #28
Matthew Swartz
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Re: Arizona...

Oh man, I didn't think this thread was going to go anywhere - I semi made it as a joke.

I think that Arizona is essentially trying to squirt weed killer on a weed and saying "if you don't die, you'll get fined!" rather than just digging out the roots. Fining people isn't the correct route to take if they want to fix obesity.

Here's an idea that I think everyone on these forums would love (and digs out those roots I mentioned): instead of "gym" in school (k-12), how about implementing crossfit? Start with crossfit kids for k-6, then get into more advanced stuff in middle school, then go even more advanced (and heavy) in high school. That 30-60 min allocated to "gym" would be perfect for a WOD.

If you breed fitness from a young age, it echoes through life.

To address the Arizona issue, the government shouldn't have a say in what you do to your body. End of discussion.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:00 AM   #29
Jason Wallis
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Swartz View Post
Oh man, I didn't think this thread was going to go anywhere - I semi made it as a joke.

I think that Arizona is essentially trying to squirt weed killer on a weed and saying "if you don't die, you'll get fined!" rather than just digging out the roots. Fining people isn't the correct route to take if they want to fix obesity.

Here's an idea that I think everyone on these forums would love (and digs out those roots I mentioned): instead of "gym" in school (k-12), how about implementing crossfit? Start with crossfit kids for k-6, then get into more advanced stuff in middle school, then go even more advanced (and heavy) in high school. That 30-60 min allocated to "gym" would be perfect for a WOD.

If you breed fitness from a young age, it echoes through life.

To address the Arizona issue, the government shouldn't have a say in what you do to your body. End of discussion.
You contradict yourself by advocating, basically, forced physical activity by making it a requirement in school. Then you proclaim that the gov't shouldn't have a say when it comes to our bodies.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:15 AM   #30
Chris Walls
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Re: Arizona...

My issue is when people need to pass physicals, drug tests, etc to keep a job so they can pay into these welfare programs, but the people who receive the benefit/money from the programs don't?

Doesn't seem fair.
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