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Old 05-18-2011, 09:07 AM   #11
Nick Haislip
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Re: Arizona...

My problem with this is who's to say that a diet plan picked out by any random doctor would work for each individual person?
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:06 AM   #12
Jason Wallis
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
People should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

That's all I'll say.
I agree with this, until public funds are being used for the upkeep of these people, then it becomes public business. Every institution, business, etc. that recieves funding from the government must meet stipulations in order to recieve these funds, why should the same principles not apply to individuals? Should they be allowed to use public funds to buy cigarettes, alcohol, etc?
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:15 PM   #13
James A Stevens
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Wallis View Post
I agree with this, until public funds are being used for the upkeep of these people, then it becomes public business. Every institution, business, etc. that recieves funding from the government must meet stipulations in order to recieve these funds, why should the same principles not apply to individuals? Should they be allowed to use public funds to buy cigarettes, alcohol, etc?

Very good point!

and I love Jared Ashley's "It's like somebody with $100,000 in credit card debt, 2 luxury cars, a horse, a mansion, and a vacation home trying to get out of debt by reducing their caddy's tip."
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:15 PM   #14
Jared Ashley
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Wallis View Post
I agree with this, until public funds are being used for the upkeep of these people, then it becomes public business.
That sounds good on paper until you really think of the ramifications of what you're saying. Consider: Let's assume a room full of people decide that if you're obese, you have to pay 50 extra bucks, and that room starts patting themselves on the back with the money they've saved. Now they're looking for more ideas to "save the public money". Here's a few:

- Studies show smoking causes higher health costs, all smokers must pay a fine.
- Studies show alcohol causes higher health costs, all who drink must pay a fine.
- Studies show caffeine causes higher health costs, all coffee, tea, and energy drink users must pay a fine.
- Studies show the more miles you drive, the more likley you are to be in an accident, you will be fined if you drive more than 15,000 miles per year.
- Studies show working nights causes higher health costs, all night shift workers must pay a fine.
- Military, fire, and police officers are at high risk for injury and disability, they are more expensive and must pay a fine.
- Sedentary jobs lead to health problems, all office workers must pay a fine.

I could go on for days.

The point is, EVERYONE has a condition and/or a behavior, probably several, that is bad for their health that may eventually catch up with them that statistically raises health care costs for "everyone else." Indeed, it would be a rare person who doesn't fit at least one of the above, although ALL of the above are concious choices.

Rather than saving money by punishment and reaction, we should be focusing on streamlining, prevention, primary care, education, ect. THAT's where the money is.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:40 PM   #15
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Arizona...

Everyone in this thread should remember that it's not unusual for top Crossfitters to have BMIs in the "overweight" category.

Everyone in the thread should also remember that a very large fraction of hospitalizations and ER visits for non-elderly people are due to behavior decisions, from driving too fast and/or drunk to accidents in various sports (including Crossfit). Picture yourself sitting in an ER, with an icepack on the body part of your choice, trying to figure out how you're going to avoid the fine for "unhealthy" behavior.

Katherine
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:00 AM   #16
Shane Skowron
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Wallis View Post
I agree with this, until public funds are being used
Not going to say what I think about that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Ashley View Post
Rather than saving money by punishment and reaction, we should be focusing on streamlining, prevention, primary care, education, ect. THAT's where the money is.
100% agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Everyone in the thread should also remember that a very large fraction of hospitalizations and ER visits for non-elderly people are due to behavior decisions

Not saying you're right or wrong but just curious if you have any data to show that accidents through high-risk behavior are anywhere near as much of a burden to the healthcare system as care for so-called "diseases of Western civilization." Intuition tells me no, but have nothing to support that.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:17 AM   #17
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
Not saying you're right or wrong but just curious if you have any data to show that accidents through high-risk behavior are anywhere near as much of a burden to the healthcare system as care for so-called "diseases of Western civilization." Intuition tells me no, but have nothing to support that.
Overall, no, they are not. But among people who are not obese and/or elderly, yes, they're a very high share. Look at the total number of doctor visits indicated by the posts on the injury board here, for instance.

My point, though, was that we really should think about where building healthcare policies around "ok" and "not ok" lifestyle decisions might lead, given that most of us participate in activities that at least some fraction of the public believes are unsafe.

Katherine
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:32 AM   #18
Stuart Jones
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Re: Arizona...

That legislation will never pass. But I do think we should just buy them all sketchers shape ups.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:58 AM   #19
Jared Ashley
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
Not saying you're right or wrong but just curious if you have any data to show that accidents through high-risk behavior are anywhere near as much of a burden to the healthcare system as care for so-called "diseases of Western civilization." Intuition tells me no, but have nothing to support that.
Intuition tells me no also, but since young people can take so much abuse compared to older/sicker folks, man can they rack up some bills. As a participant in the high-risk sport of skydiving I have the misfortune of knowing personally a handful of people who have spent weeks or months in the ICU post-accident, plus a lot of physical therapy/rehab and lost productive work time. Bills range into 6 and even 7 digits. Occurances are relative rare so overall cost is low vs. something like diabetes, but it'd be easy to spin it otherwise in a board room.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:06 PM   #20
Melody Glasgow
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Re: Arizona...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Ashley View Post
That sounds good on paper until you really think of the ramifications of what you're saying. Consider: Let's assume a room full of people decide that if you're obese, you have to pay 50 extra bucks, and that room starts patting themselves on the back with the money they've saved. Now they're looking for more ideas to "save the public money". Here's a few:

- Studies show smoking causes higher health costs, all smokers must pay a fine.
- Studies show alcohol causes higher health costs, all who drink must pay a fine.
- Studies show caffeine causes higher health costs, all coffee, tea, and energy drink users must pay a fine.
- Studies show the more miles you drive, the more likley you are to be in an accident, you will be fined if you drive more than 15,000 miles per year.
- Studies show working nights causes higher health costs, all night shift workers must pay a fine.
- Military, fire, and police officers are at high risk for injury and disability, they are more expensive and must pay a fine.
- Sedentary jobs lead to health problems, all office workers must pay a fine.

I could go on for days.

The point is, EVERYONE has a condition and/or a behavior, probably several, that is bad for their health that may eventually catch up with them that statistically raises health care costs for "everyone else." Indeed, it would be a rare person who doesn't fit at least one of the above, although ALL of the above are concious choices.

Rather than saving money by punishment and reaction, we should be focusing on streamlining, prevention, primary care, education, ect. THAT's where the money is.
While I technically agree with the point you're trying to make that fining groups of people based on someone's opinion of what is unhealthy is going too far, I think obese people that will end up languishing in hospitals for years before they die cost society a significant amount of money.
Smokers pay very high taxes on the cigarettes they buy, drinkers pay high taxes on the alcohol they buy, drivers pay taxes to register their vehicles and pay taxes on fuel. Most sedentary jobs are associated with health insurance. Military, firefighters, and police officers definitely have health insurance. Where is the tax on fast food and soda pop? Twinkies and candy?

It seems that the other vices are associated with significant cost to the consumer while junk foods push all of the long term cost onto society.
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