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Old 02-06-2009, 11:15 AM   #71
Amber Mathwig
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
The AF and Navy use PT for fundamentally different purposes than the Marines and Army. With some obvious exceptions (STS, NSW), the AF and Navy take a corporate approach to PT. The goal of the AF and Navy PT programs is to reduce their personnel loss rate due to job-related injuries and health issues. They have no need for highly fit individuals, only moderately fit individuals. To such an actuarial mindset, the perceived 'risks' of CrossFit may well outweigh the benefits to them.
Well said, and very likely correct, but I think that similar in the manner to which teachers have been finding students who CrossFit are better at school....the Navy and AF may find that CF'ers are better at their jobs. Sure, we may spend part of our day on the message boards, but the hours dedicated to the job itself are going to be significantly improved via the CrossFit mentality. Additionally, I don't really see CrossFitters walking out of the gym and lighting up a cigarette, as people who do the minimum PT standards often do. Yet another mental advantage. The mental advantages to the fleet are all there, but too many people will take the upper echelon's opinions as facts and not even give it a shot.

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Old 02-06-2009, 11:48 AM   #72
Jeffrey Crawford
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Michael Wengloski View Post
The military... not having a standard?!? NEVER.

I remember asking for permission to move weights outside by the pull up bars and getting the green light one day, then the next day getting chewed out by a retired master guns.

The military is always all over the place, it's all about who you ask and how they interpret it. For instance... maybe it's not the same as AF, but Navy and USMC.. ask 5 different people what the policy on sandles are and i bet you will get at least 3 totally different answers. And now i'm totally way off topic.
Sandles, or walking and drinking/chewing or chewing gum.....Never got it. All the things to take a stand on and Gum chewing? LOL....I loved being in the marines but don't miss some of the wierd rules.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 11:54 AM   #73
Michael Wengloski
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post

The AF and Navy use PT for fundamentally different purposes than the Marines and Army. With some obvious exceptions (STS, NSW), the AF and Navy take a corporate approach to PT. The goal of the AF and Navy PT programs is to reduce their personnel loss rate due to job-related injuries and health issues. They have no need for highly fit individuals, only moderately fit individuals. To such an actuarial mindset, the perceived 'risks' of CrossFit may well outweigh the benefits to them.
Hey now, let's not forget the Navy's FMF corpsman.

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Sandles, or walking and drinking/chewing or chewing gum.....Never got it. All the things to take a stand on and Gum chewing? LOL....I loved being in the marines but don't miss some of the wierd rules.
Haha yeah. I will never understand how simple things such as not cutting your hair short enough or having your hand in your pocket makes you a "sack of manure".
 
Old 02-06-2009, 01:10 PM   #74
George Mounce
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
The goal of the AF and Navy PT programs is to reduce their personnel loss rate due to job-related injuries and health issues. They have no need for highly fit individuals, only moderately fit individuals.
I disagree immensely with this, plenty of AF people need to be extremely fit for their jobs. The climate of the AF has changed and fat people aren't wanted, moderately fit people are told to get with the program, and those who are high fit will and do go far.

The AF isn't moving away from the program. The email trail just happens to be AF stuff from a few people. I have actually been cleared in at my base to teach CF stuff after much email traffic to one of the individuals in that email trail. Helps that I've been to a cert and been doing CF long enough to know what I'm talking about.

The real issue with my base was people going to the CF website, taking a WOD and making people do it, without scaling, and people getting hurt. I don't make fat people who can't do a push-up attempt a HSPU, but that happened here.

There is more going on in that email trail, but to just go after the AF like that, well I don't appreciate it.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 02:28 PM   #75
Matthew Eucalitto
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
Don't make the mistake of conflating the Air Force with "the military". It is entirely unsurprising that the AF would be moving away from a program while the other services are moving towards it.

The AF and Navy use PT for fundamentally different purposes than the Marines and Army. With some obvious exceptions (STS, NSW), the AF and Navy take a corporate approach to PT. The goal of the AF and Navy PT programs is to reduce their personnel loss rate due to job-related injuries and health issues. They have no need for highly fit individuals, only moderately fit individuals. To such an actuarial mindset, the perceived 'risks' of CrossFit may well outweigh the benefits to them.

The Marines and Army are warrior services, where most members must fight in the normal conduct of their jobs. They use PT to gain a combat edge. They understand the consequences of poor fitness may be mission failure or death, and that one can never be too fit. Thus they are willing to accept a greater degree of risk in the execution of a physical training program designed to achieve a high degree of fitness. This is the target demographic for CrossFit, not the IBM accountants in blue.

FWIW, top end SOF units do not follow any organized PT program. They provide a wide variety of instruction and equipment, and then allow individuals and small teams to program and execute their own PT programs.


Sorry, not to be an a**, but the last time you were in the AF was????

Our entire mindset has been changed, and as George has said, we've been told to either get fit or get out. about 70% of the guys (and gals) I know in the AF have been deployed, and many have been deployed in ILO taskings (ie supplementing a lack of Army personnel). The AF does convoy ops in Iraq, therefore we all have to get convoy and tactics training and our security forces are over there on as terrible a rotation schedule as the Marines and Army, if not worse.

Its not the same old Air Force it use to be, and I've seen the numbers of CF'ers grow exponentially even since I started in June.

So i plead with you, don't spout off on something, insulting a few hundred thousand individuals, if you have no idea what you're talking about. We found out the hard way that we're gonna have to be in shape and we're gonna have to do jobs that none of us had ever been trained to do.
And (no offense to the Marines and Army) I've seen quite a few very out of shape people from all services, but that is not indicative of the whole service.

Last edited by Matthew Eucalitto : 02-06-2009 at 02:33 PM.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 02:48 PM   #76
Amber Mathwig
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

George and Matt - I have re-read your posts several times and SO WISH I could have said the same about the Navy. But, in my experiences, I really can't right now. Even with our "Get fit or get out" regulations, it's still only affecting a small percentage of people and many of those people are being put through PT and nutrition programs that are not working for them. I maintain my original response to Ed, removing the "AF" from it.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:53 PM   #77
Michael Wengloski
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Originally Posted by Matthew Eucalitto View Post
Sorry, not to be an a**, but the last time you were in the AF was????

Our entire mindset has been changed, and as George has said, we've been told to either get fit or get out. about 70% of the guys (and gals) I know in the AF have been deployed, and many have been deployed in ILO taskings (ie supplementing a lack of Army personnel). The AF does convoy ops in Iraq, therefore we all have to get convoy and tactics training and our security forces are over there on as terrible a rotation schedule as the Marines and Army, if not worse.

Its not the same old Air Force it use to be, and I've seen the numbers of CF'ers grow exponentially even since I started in June.

So i plead with you, don't spout off on something, insulting a few hundred thousand individuals, if you have no idea what you're talking about. We found out the hard way that we're gonna have to be in shape and we're gonna have to do jobs that none of us had ever been trained to do.
And (no offense to the Marines and Army) I've seen quite a few very out of shape people from all services, but that is not indicative of the whole service.
I'm not trying to stir anything up here. I have respect for all the branches, as we all do our different jobs.

The Navy, like the AF has a lot of people forward deployed with the Army. And on top of that all of our Corpsman taking care of the Marines and the NSW community. However, I don't see how this relates to the physical fitness of our members. I still look around and see pathetic fitness levels.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 03:16 PM   #78
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

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Sorry, not to be an a**, but the last time you were in the AF was????
I spent '03 to '08 assigned to a deployable joint command on an Air Force base. I had AF people under my supervision and our unit complied with all their service requirements. I still go on base several days a week, where I frequently see airmen doing organized PT. I've seen enough to compare with my 20 years of the Army, 15 years of which were in SF. Oh, and I spent a year attending a USMC school at Quantico and participating in their PT program. I stand by my words.
 
Old 02-06-2009, 03:46 PM   #79
Ben Chapman
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

I certainly don't agree with sentiments that the Air Force is moving away from crossfit... especially the deployed Air Force.

Ali Al Salem AB in Kuwait has crossfit workouts posted on the wall of the weight room and went out of their way to purchase several sets of bumper weights, rings, kettlebells and a climbing rope. The Wing Commander is the one instigating it all. He's a huge crossfit proponent. Many of the methodologies are posted along with the WOD every day. So you can count one very large deployed location as one that is moving TOWARDS crossfit, at least at the 06 level. I also know that there are crossfit groups training at Balad, Baghdad, Bagram and Mosul. Who knows how many others there are.

I find those emails somewhat funny considering most of them were from civilians and senior enlisted. Hardly any of the actual higher ups of the command, much less the Air Force itself. I've met my own opposition to crossfit, but mostly just on a personal level with people who think it's dorky, not unsafe. So far my experience has only shown that it is on the rise. As soon as they ban it at Air Force gyms, you can bet there will be some uprisings.

As to standardization, this bothers me too. Some gyms provide big tubs of chalk, others ban it altogether. There are many many things that are completely inconsistent between bases and it gets under my skin to no end, especially considering I hop from base to base quite frequently.

It might also be worth adding that Ramstein AB in Germany has an affiliate that trains exclusively at the base fitness center. Hardly shying away from it there.
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:08 PM   #80
Matthew Eucalitto
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Re: Military leaning away from CrossFit?

I dont want to hijack the thread. I don't disagree that people still do organized PT sessions, but my issue with your statement was that the AF basically does nothing to necessitate being in shape, and that we have unit PT basically to keep from having a heart attack. I especially took exception to the snide remarks about IBM blue suiters or something along those lines. My point was that you may have seen airmen that in the past were fat, and no one cared, and you see from an OUTSIDE perspective that we spend our days developing weapons in order to hopefully make the fight even a little easier for the guys on the ground, but you DON'T serve in the AF and you DON'T really know whats going on in the AF or the Navy, or probably the Marines.

As a whole we are out of shape, but my point was that is changing, and the whole mindset of the AF with regards to fitness IS changing as our role in the fight has drastically changed. We'll never be in as good shape as a whole as the Marines or the Army...but we can't exactly spend the same amount of time training either.

The only reason I posted was the derogatory tone of the original post towards two branches of service that do alot in this war, one of which I know is trying to change...hopefully the other is as well

Last edited by Matthew Eucalitto : 02-06-2009 at 05:16 PM.
 
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