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Old 04-02-2009, 06:00 PM   #21
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
But that doesn't mean that whole grain bread, bran cereal, or oatmeal are bad for you. In moderation, they are no worse than any other food. There is nothing inherently wrong with a sandwich, and if you think that people are somehow harming themselves by eating a turkey sandwich with whole grain bread and low fat mayo, then IMO you're buying into a fringe theory with very little proof. You can do that if you want, but there's really no science for you to beat your co-workers over the head with.

Doctors routinely prescribe diets high in soluble fiber (oats) for people with heart disease. They don't do this because they are stupid or malevolent. They do it because the preponderance of medical evidence supports that diet as a corrective measure.
Yes part of the problem with grains is they are mostly a refined source of carbohydrates and that effects insulin so on and so forth. But with grains, wheat gluten in particular, they are ALSO a source of damage to the epithelial lining of your gut which can lead to autoimmune disorders and chronic inflammation. While kept to small doses, as in a sandwich every so often, it is probably not the end of the world but most people have not gone long enough without grains to really know whether or not it is effecting them and how much. Check out: http://lifespotlight.com/health/2008...o-do-about-it/ (WFS)

And as for your comment about doctors, they prescribe those diets because they are grossly misinformed and have placed their trust in institutions that are far from trust worthy.


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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Several of the papers address the content of the diet. I don't have time to dig up links, but it's very high in low-glycemic carbs, with sweet potatoes as a staple. Most of the high-GI carbs are from rice, which of course contains no gluten. Soy is a major protein source, as is fish. Very little red meat.

Anyway, you wanted to see healthy people on high carb diets. You'll find them in Okinawa.

Katherine
It was claimed that "there are lots of healthy people on high grain high carb diets" and from the looks of it the people of Okinawa are not those people. I will readily agree that carb / protein/ fat break down is highly variable. What is not as variable is the human bodies ability to process grains in significant quantities, in particular wheat gluten.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:04 PM   #22
Danni Coffman
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
That is only possible with modern medicine though.



The problem is that maintaining a healthy body fat is darn near impossible if your diet is not locked in. I know you mentioned before that there are people that "eat high grain high carb diets and are very healthy". I would like to see these people. I would be very interested to see their blood work and to actually determine how healthy they are. There is genetic variability in our ability to tolerate grains, but the do effect us all to some degree or another.

Just because there is not a unified perfect definition of what is "healthy nutrition" does not mean that we can just throw it all to the wind and say, "well exercise is more important anyways". Especially since we are trying to optimize health and preformance. There are lots of things that won't necessarily kill you, but are they optimal??
Although I am trying to keep an open mind, and am trying to work my way through Good Calorie Bad Calorie, I like my grains and am hesitant to part with them. My diet is just ok -- I don't eat Twinkies and fast food but definitely eat my fair share of grains and stuff like Kashi Go Lean Crunch cereal -- and even stuff like vanilla soy milk. You know, things that are considered poison on these boards. I recently had my blood work done because I was curious (I don't know my bf% but my weight is healthy) and the results were all quite good. Then again, I'm an ultrarunner and I also Crossfit (though I didn't start until after the bloodwork) so perhaps it's the exercise that allows the sins. Who knows. All I know is that according to my doc I'm super healthy despite eating cereal and vanilla soy milk (and drinking beer and wine etc.)
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:07 PM   #23
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

I've noted a basic problem in all these diet discussions. People can't seem to settle on one prescription. And so we have conversations like this:

A: High carb diets are bad. Zone. Eat lots of protein.

B: The Okinawans eat tons of carbs.

A: Sweet potatoes are okay. They're low-GI. It's grain that's bad.

B: But they eat rice, too. And the Abkhazians eat lots of cereals.

A: But rice doesn't have gluten. And oats and corn don't have much. Gluten bad!

And on and on.

Chocolate frosted sugar bombs just aren't the same as steel-cut oats or brown rice. Mashed potatoes with every meal isn't the same as having a sandwich with whole grain bread.

Grain doesn't make you fat. Eating too much makes you fat.

(And yes, I know that it is really easy to eat too much when your diet is based on heavily processed grains. I'm not going to defend white bread and Twinkies. But it's still "too much" that is the problem.)

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-02-2009 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:11 PM   #24
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Danni Coffman View Post
Although I am trying to keep an open mind, and am trying to work my way through Good Calorie Bad Calorie, I like my grains and am hesitant to part with them.
If you're happy and your doctor is happy, why change?

Katherine
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:20 PM   #25
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Grain doesn't make you fat. Eating too much makes you fat.
Talk about a gross oversimplification. That sounds like the reasoning that most physicians have, and is why America is so fat and unhealthy.

Grains (in particular gluten) may not make everyone fat, but they will at the vary least prevent optimal health and preformance which is antagonistic to the goals of CF.

Katherine I am curious have you read Good Calories, Bad Calories? Have you read any of the work published by Cordain on the Paleo diet? You seem rather jaded with regards to nutrition advice and I wonder why?
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:45 PM   #26
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Katherine I am curious have you read Good Calories, Bad Calories? Have you read any of the work published by Cordain on the Paleo diet? You seem rather jaded with regards to nutrition advice and I wonder why?
Because most of the nutrition advice out there is pseudoscientific garbage promoted by people with a vested interest. Or it's oversimplified, often deliberately, to the point of uselessness. (Haven't had a chance to read Taubes or Cordain yet, so no comment on them specifically.)

When you look at healthy populations-- Okinawans, Abkhazians, Cretans -- macronutrient ratios don't seem to matter. The presence of absence of specific food items doesn't seem to matter. The constants that come up over and over again are:
* portion control
* minimally processed foods
* active lifestyles

The rest, IMO, is mostly just noise.

Katherine
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Old 04-02-2009, 06:54 PM   #27
Danni Coffman
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Because most of the nutrition advice out there is pseudoscientific garbage promoted by people with a vested interest. Or it's oversimplified, often deliberately, to the point of uselessness. (Haven't had a chance to read Taubes or Cordain yet, so no comment on them specifically.)

When you look at healthy populations-- Okinawans, Abkhazians, Cretans -- macronutrient ratios don't seem to matter. The presence of absence of specific food items doesn't seem to matter. The constants that come up over and over again are:
* portion control
* minimally processed foods
* active lifestyles

The rest, IMO, is mostly just noise.

Katherine
I think you're right on.
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:46 PM   #28
Scott Clark
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Grains (in particular gluten) may not make everyone fat, but they will at the vary least prevent optimal health and preformance which is antagonistic to the goals of CF.
You do understand that this is your opinion, right? Are you talking about optimal health as defined by bloggers, Cordain, and/or Gary Taubes? Who's standard are we going by here?
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Old 04-02-2009, 08:50 PM   #29
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Because most of the nutrition advice out there is pseudoscientific garbage promoted by people with a vested interest. Or it's oversimplified, often deliberately, to the point of uselessness.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:21 PM   #30
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
When you look at healthy populations-- Okinawans, Abkhazians, Cretans -- macronutrient ratios don't seem to matter. The presence of absence of specific food items doesn't seem to matter. The constants that come up over and over again are:
* portion control
* minimally processed foods
* active lifestyles
Meant to mention this before....

In the United States, meanwhile, three things happened at once:
* food got cheap, but the "clean your plate" ethic remained;
* "convenience" foods exploded as a share of the national diet; and
* the population shifted from active jobs to sedentary jobs.

Surprisingly enough, having abandoned all three key components of a healthy lifestyle, Americans got fat.

Katherine
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