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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-17-2007, 11:09 PM   #11
Steven Low
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Eric with that mindset any hanging movement like kipping pullups where you straighted your arms at the bottom of a movement can potentially injure your shoulder. I don't really find that as anywhere near valid really...

In any case if you turn the rings to face out you can hang at the bottom of the rings with straight arms with a false grip. Yes, this should be doable by anyone except those with severe lack of shoulder flexibility.

Honestly though I don't think it really matters. Those that can do the most kipping muscle ups will probably be able to do the most strict muscle ups and vice versa. If you're benchmarking your own workouts and competing against mainly yourself then you need to keep them consistent. However, if you want to compare with other people then you need to do them the same. CF mainly encourages the former, I think, and the latter is just nice to do if you want to compete with your friends or other people if you so desire...
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Old 02-18-2007, 02:53 AM   #12
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Dave: I actually think that the most functional pullup to help get over a wall would be the jumping pullup. Walls are sometimes higher than you can reach. I haven't tryed jumping muscle ups but I'll bet they are even better for getting over a wall. Unless you have broken/chopped off both or your ankles or something, you are always going to use your legs to help get over a wall. If you combine that with regular pullups, kipping pullups, muscle-ups, and kipping muscles ups, I don't think there is a wall that can stop you as long as you can reach the top.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:34 PM   #13
Eric Cimrhanzel
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"There are no competitions...just your own progressive fitness."

"I never thought of Crossfit as a sport."

"I compare my performance to MY performance not what any one else does."

Wasn't it Greg Glassman who pointed out "Men will die for points"? Pretty sure it was... Moving on.

Gentlemen, you and I have completely different mindsets on this. I train mostly (thought not all) Type A personality Alpha Males who love competition and subsequently demand standards of performance. These outstanding men and women are already commissioned in our Armed Forces, or will be soon. They deserve the best physical training possible, and that's what I try to bring them. I'll say it again: That test would make an AWESOME PFT, especially if it was only part of it.

CrossFit IS a sport. Just like the Obstacle Course at OCS, firing a .45 at 50m for accuracy (thank God the Marine Corps is reissuing them to replace the 9mm!), and the PFT. You make it a sport, you make it fun, you make it competitive, and lo and behold! You have people who want to do it again and again. I'll take Handstand Pushups, Rope Climbing, Muscle-ups, Hip Pullovers, and Tabata Squats over Pushups, Situps, Strict Pullups, run, rinse, repeat any day of the week. To that end, we NEED standards of performance. That's all I was searching for here, and I found it.

You want to train just yourself? Good for you. Cool. Do your thing. That's not why I'm here, though.
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:13 AM   #14
Mike ODonnell
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If you cant compete against your own times and performance...what's the point? Where's the personal sense of accomplishment without having to resort to the "I am better than you" ego feeding mentality? We see enough of those issues in sports already....when people need to learn more about personal performance, working as a group/team and giving everything they have. Those are the real life lessons. The outcome will reflect the effort. Sport is is long as the end of the day we all realize that we are on the same playing level.

We are all different and that is ok. As for your needs you said, Good for you. Do your thing. That's not why I am here.

(Message edited by mike_od on February 19, 2007)
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:30 AM   #15
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Mike, I agree with you to an extent--do your thing, improve your own game, and worry about what you're doing, not what everyone else is. That said...

I have to agree with Eric as well. CF has encouraged competition since its inception. Cfers post times in a public area, 'records' for workouts are tracked, etc. In these circumstances, I think it's entirely appropriate to create very solid standards. There have been many cases in the past of folks claiming remarkable performances on certain diagnostic workouts who then displayed atrocious interpretations of the movements when asked to demonstrate.

Regarding the muscle-up specifically, I've already made my case in the article Eric linked, but I'll add -

Chris,Larry - Ultimately there is no limit to bottom extension for the sake of maintaining a false grip. You and others may be limited now, but that's just a product of not developing the movement completely yet. Do you think the ability to mainatin the false grip at full extension will improve by continuing to perform limited extension MUs? Or would it make more sense to suffer through a slightly extended workout time at least occasionally to force yourself to make it to full extension and develop that ability?

As I said in my article, what you do depends on your goals, and I'm not here to tell anyone what their goals should be. But I do think it's shortsighted to say 'you can't do it'.

Lastly, Steven - The 'he who can do the most kipped can do the most strict' notion, whether regarding pull-ups or muscle-ups, has been floating around CF for years. I have yet to see it demonstrated convincingly. I've known a great number of people to be able to do huge numbers of kipped pull-ups (in the 50s and 60s) and have less than 15 strict pull-ups. But the inverse is different--those who can do lots of strict pull-ups, after learning the kip, will destroy the kippers with weak stricts.

This idea came about, I think, in the early days when people coming to CF tended to have lots of strict pull-ups and were converting to kipped. Therefore, they had lots of both. Now people are more often coming straight to CF and kipping out of the gate without developing much strict numbers, and those strict numbers are remaining pretty stagnant.

So, bottom line, as I said in the MU article: If you can do a strict PU/MU, you can do a kipped PU/MU. The opposite is not necessarily true. The wiser approach, then, at least to me, is pretty clear.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:32 PM   #16
Steven Low
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Greg: I actually could honestly care less. :-) My mainly point was the last one where if you want to benchmark yourself against other people you both need to do the same workout.

Yeah, in my experience I can do massive amounts of kipping stuff because I have the background technique. I usually do strict form stuff anyway though so whatever. I am a huge proponent of everyone learning proper muscle up technique without the kip as you may have seen from my other posts! In terms of overall power generation if you're not doing strict muscle ups from lockout to lockout and its improving your metcon more than if you did... hell I'd say go for it. Whatever your goals are go for that, but I would still recommend learning proper technique as that will help everything in the long run.

This post may have been a bit off topic.. oh well.
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Old 02-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #17
Aushion Chatman
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Each gym and group of trainers/trainees develops it's own can change over time when personalities join/leave the group...if you need standards enforce them, if you need competition advocate it...I think Eric and Mike got it right, do your thing. Just don't hurt yourself trying to beat yourself or others.
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Old 02-22-2007, 10:28 AM   #18
Dale F. Saran
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As this issue relates to CF and competition, I think some of you are missing a practical point - how do you know? Bear with me here.
Eric, you advocate a strict standard for "countability" and "accountability" - for the "outstanding men and women are already commissioned in our Armed Forces, or will be soon" - (by the way, please stop with that stuff. It's nice for the candidates, but for those of us with 14 or 15 years of service, it sounds a little condescending.)
I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you, however. I HATE people who do half-assed reps and tell themselevs they're studs. But since CF scores are merely black letters on a message board, the "strict standards" you demand are practically meaningless. Let's suppose we all agree on what one MU should be - full lockout at the bottom to count. And I post that I do 30 MU's for some time - whether it's good, bad , or middle of the road. How do YOU know how I did them? You don't. You have no idea. So the competition aspect of this is pointless. Within your own group, where it can be observed and monitored, sure, great, YOU come up with a standard and then hold people to it. And if you want Coach to define it here on the Boards, that's great, too. But it's a meaningless comparison if you can't observe it, unless you assume that everyone here sticks 100% to the standard in every single one of their posts and reps. Some do. Some have proven it in front of others at certs or on video clips. But if you believe that every one who posts scores is doing the reps the way YOU believe they ought to be done to count, I have some property to sell you...
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