CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-16-2007, 09:24 PM   #1
Eric Cimrhanzel
Member Eric Cimrhanzel is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston and College Station  TX
Posts: 297
First of all: Wow. Outstanding video and very impressive show of bodyweight strength, especially for someone his size. Greg is obviously a stellar athlete.

That being said, here's a question I repeated on the Comments page. Why is it that on multiple Muscle-up reps that Greg (and most CrossFitter videos I've seen that showcase MUs) does not lock out on the bottom? I know that work capacity is the point, but if perfect form isn't the standard by which these tests can be repeated, then at what point is a rep "complete"? When the arms are at a 120 degree angle? 160? It's not 180 on any consecutive rep. How do we measure this test and deliver it to others without a solid standard on what a full rep is? Or IS this suppossed to be the standard?

Being able to kip and not lock out on each rep at the bottom gives you a severely diminished number as oppossed to kipping and not locking out on the bottom, for obvious reasons. Personally, I can get 3 MUs on rings in a row without a kip and with full lockout, but have gone as high as 7 in a row on a really good day with a kip and without a full lockout on the bottom and top.

Or is having imperfect form like that the way to optimize work capacity?

Just curious.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2007, 09:47 PM   #2
Scott Allen Hanson
Member Scott Allen Hanson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Idaho Falls  Idaho
Posts: 1,008
Eric,

I've noticed on numerous videos of high met con demand, form suffers. You might check out the Performance Menu archives for an article by Greg Everett titled "The Big Kids' Muscle-up". It discusses the full range achieved by locking elbows and turning rings out at top, and by straightening arms by turning palms away at bottom. Basically, Greg is doing "kipped rudimentary muscle-ups" resulting in higher power output/intensity than would be possible with strict, "grown-up" full rom mu's. It seems you had that figured out by your last question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 02:36 AM   #3
Chris Kemp
Affiliate Chris Kemp is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester-Le-Street  North East England
Posts: 837
Eric, whilst the form shown may not pass in a gymnastics gym it is seriously improved from Greg's last showing (DB thrusters and muscle-ups). He is coming pretty close to full lock-out at the top. At the bottom, I do believe there is a practical limit as to how low you can go without losing the false grip if you are going to kip the next rep. That said, I reckon a lot of the reps looked pretty deep.

You would have to make your own call on which side of the technique line you want your folks to fall on and which form points you will insist on to ensure consistency.

Cheers, kempie
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 09:13 AM   #4
Larry Lindenman
Affiliate Larry Lindenman is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago  Illinois
Posts: 2,769
Kempie is correct about not losing the false grip, having to reestablish a false grip every rep would derail the metcon aspect of the workout.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 10:53 AM   #5
Eric Cimrhanzel
Member Eric Cimrhanzel is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston and College Station  TX
Posts: 297
Very well, then for the sake of repeatability of this fitness test, I pose this to Greg Glassman:

According to CrossFit, what guidelines constitute the completion of one Muscle Up repetition during competition?

This is a very important question if CrossFit wants to continue to be taken seriously (which it obviously already has by Military/Paramilitary/Emergency personnel, among others), because EVERY other sport that scores solely based on an individual manipulating both weight and the human body (Gymnastics, Olympic Lifting, Powerlifting, Girevoy Sport, etc) has very specific guidelines for what constitutes a complete repetition and what constitues a "no count".

Personally, I like where this is going. Can you imagine how much more fit our servicemen would be, and how much more fun my job would be as a trainer, if there was a Physical Fitness Test that included Muscle-ups on rings?! The Marines and all SOCOMs have Pullups already, so they're only a transition and a dip away. :-)

Calming down now... Conversely, the CrossFit Total has already done this. Thanks to Mark Rippetoe, we know exactly what counts as a Deadlift, a Squat, and a Press. All I'm saying is that we should have a standard here. Or if it already exists, what exactly is it?

Ceteris paribus, the Rudimentary Muscle Up that Greg Amundson uses would give anyone a very different score on this test (which is part of CFJ #8's How Fit Art You? for those who don't know), as well as a very reduced time on "Complete 30 Muscle-ups for time" than doing the Big Kid's Muscle Up (both terms ala Greg Everett). Link to Everett's article is here and is WFS: http://www.performancemenu.com/shorties/index.php?show=shorty&shortyID=18&search Terms=muscle The entire article is outstanding. Get it and read it if you haven't already.

The following is not the best analogy, but it is close. Rudimentary Muscle Ups are to Strict Muscle Ups what Kipping Pullups are to Strict Pullups, what the Jerk is to the Press, and what the Swing is to the Deadlift: Both within their respective pairs are outstanding exercises, and both should be continually practiced and improved upon, but one is for power and work capacity, and the other is for strength. They should not be confused.

Long story short: In competition, what is the standard?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 11:50 AM   #6
Mike ODonnell
Member Mike ODonnell is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 1,566
There are no competitions...just your own progressive fitness.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 12:10 PM   #7
Dave Campbell
Member Dave Campbell is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Albany  NY
Posts: 344
Eric,
You said, "EVERY other sport that scores..." I never thought of Crossfit as a sport. I think of it as GPP that gets me fit enough to participate in sports. I understand where you're heading, but I'm not sure it really matters. Functionality and perfect form don't always intersect. Think of kipping pull-ups. Many say they represent what someone would really do to get over a wall or a rock; you wouldn't just pull solely with your arms. On the other hand, try and kip on a wall; you'll bang your knees into the wall every time (I'm a kipper). I think we often get carried away with nit-picking form. Hell, it's just fitness. Perfect form or not, it's doing the body good. I thought the idea was to use CF to show how it transfers to other sports. Many seem to view it solely as a sport.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 12:14 PM   #8
Larry Lindenman
Affiliate Larry Lindenman is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago  Illinois
Posts: 2,769
Eric, I'm sort of not getting the point. Personally, I condition myself for things outside of the gym...I compare my performance to MY performance not what any one else does. The muscleup is not even a real move in gymnastics. I was a ring guy for 5 years and the muscleup was used as a way to get above the rings to do other stuff...I don't even think we had a name for it. I got to be honest, me getting into an attic or on a second floor balcony...I'm not pointing my toes and get no points for good form, power and speed matter. What's harder, doing a muscleup, dropping down to a full hang (rest) muscle up again or keeping a static contraction at the end of the range of motion? Try multiple reps of shoulder presses with no lockout at top. The lockout actually lets you rest, doesn't matter with few reps, higher reps it really hurts. Kind of like stopping a squat prior to locking out the knees. I'm not arguing for poor form, just think if power is your goal, fully extending at the bottom of a muscleup will break your speed to a point where power is not developed. I think you're right though...two distinct effects.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 02:49 PM   #9
Eric Cimrhanzel
Member Eric Cimrhanzel is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston and College Station  TX
Posts: 297
For those who didn't get the point and missed "for the sake of repeatability of this fitness test", that's cool. I got my answer from today's comments section. :-)

All three answers make sense to me. As for future testing, one should merely specify what kind of Muscle Up is acceptable to count as one rep: Rudimentary or Strict. For this test, it was the former. It's that simple.

"Comment #25 and Comment #13: He isn't coming to a full extension at the bottom because he is using an active shoulder. See Sunday 070128

"The active shoulder, engaging the traps to elevate the shoulder, is a critical component to stabilizing overhead lifts, handstands, and handsprings."

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/...lderLabels.jpg
Comment #73 - Posted by Jack at February 17, 2007 09:59 AM



#13 [aka me, Eric]
A comment on Greg's MU form:

It is important to consider scapular position in any overhead maneuver. When the elbow goes to full lockout, it is nearly impossible to maintain a strong scapular position. Do not forget that the ONLY ligamentous attachment of the upper extremity to the rest of the skeleton is the sternoclavicular joint. The scapula relies solely on muscles to keep it in a stable position. These muscles set up force couples to maintain scapular stability throughout the shoulder's huge range of motion.

During a fully extended hang, the deltoid and upper trap are fully shortened and thus unable to stabalize the scapula. Conversely, the teres and rhomboid are lengthened beyond their physiological peak contractile length. Thus, full extension in this movement can lead to scapular (and shoulder) injury.

Some may say that the full range of motion is the best but in this case that is not true. These muscles will not adapt to be able to contract at their peak at a different length since that length is dictated on the subcellular level. Addiotionally, the vast majority (myself included) of the population has rhomboids that are stretch weakend beyond all recognition and don't function correctly anyway due to inhibition from chronically facilitated pectoralis muscles.

In a nutshell all I am trying to say is that hanging your shoulder out there at full extension of the elbow can be a dangerous move for the everyday crossfitter. There is a reason one can get more reps without full extension - and its not that they are cheating. Our anatomy is designed that way.

Your question about how to standardize measurement of these tests is therefore a good question but the answer is not as simple as performing full range of motion on every exercise.
Comment #78 - Posted by Craiger at February 17, 2007 10:24 AM



All,

Greg's not coming to full extension at the bottom of the muscle-up is a form fault. It's cause is lack of security in the false grip. This in turn is caused by practicing almost exclusively on low rings where the false grip can be comfortably secured without load.

When you have to jump to the rings with a "normal" grip and from there "choke-up" to the false grip, the false grip is much more securely developed and the athlete will be much more willing to come to full arm extension at rep's bottom.

Raise your rings!
Comment #79 - Posted by Coach at February 17, 2007 10:29 AM "



Thanks Jack, Craiger, and Coach for the prompt and detailed answers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2007, 02:59 PM   #10
Blair Robert Lowe
Member Blair Robert Lowe is offline
 
Blair Robert Lowe's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento  CA
Posts: 7,948
Ahh, for some they are confronted with flexibility issues when in the false grip. To just hang in the false grip with straight arms can be a challenge. Part of this is doing them a lot, and part of it is just having that flexibility.
It's actually easier to pull from a straight or natural extension than if, at best your arm is say at a 150 degree angle. Just getting into the false grip requires a bit of a static hold, besides pulling from a state of contraction.

Yeah, my elbows have always sucked in false grip and I have always loved the false grip. When a kid loves a false grip on first try, I smile. When they don't, I grin.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Greg everett and eva!! Mike Burgener Community 3 05-01-2006 11:08 PM
Greg Amundson Info? Ben Jackson Fitness 5 10-30-2005 08:59 PM
Overhead squat form - Amundson pic from a couple of days ago Tim Johnson Exercises 28 05-27-2005 01:30 PM
Clean & Jerk Form (Video inc.) Adam Burella Exercises 4 04-22-2005 06:48 PM
Greg Amundson Matt Cullen Fitness 10 07-17-2003 07:41 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.