CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-29-2005, 07:59 AM   #1
Christopher M Combs
 
Profile:  
Posts: n/a
Here is something that I’ve been pondering for a while. It seems in the modern philosophy of physical training that all conditioning can be broken into 2 arenas, endurance and anaerobic (strength training). However, it seems that in reality, there is a third area, stamina. Stamina, is somewhere in between strength and endurance. It is something that combat sports such as boxing, Olympic Taekwondo, and cage fighters need.

Here is my train of thought on this: Endurance activities force your body to become efficient at what ever exercise you are doing. If you become an extreme endurance athlete, you become very efficient at that particular exercise. However, most endurance athletes lack strength and generally are very uncomfortable doing something that involves dynamic and explosive movements. On the other hand, strength athletes are generally great at activities involving dynamic and explosive movements, however, they generally lack the ability to carryout these movements for an extended period. This is where stamina comes in. Stamina is your ability to carry out a particular activity, involving explosive/dynamic movements for an extended period. Stamina doesn’t fall direct under strength or endurance, it is somewhere in between. Building stamina is very activity specific, but I will have to admit, Cross Fit is probably the best foundation I have seen for building stamina. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 08:12 AM   #2
Scott Kustes
Member Scott Kustes is offline
 
Scott Kustes's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 1,258
Would this pertain to the 3 metabolic pathways - strength, as you define it, being the short burst pathway (can't recall the names); stamina being the 1-2 minute pathway; and endurance being the long-run, oxidative (I think that's the name) pathway?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 08:34 AM   #3
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Stamina is actually one of the ten fitness attributes. To me, it's along the lines of climbing up and down mountains with a heavy backpack for days on end with little sleep. It would differ from aerobic endurance in that the latter would be more like what marathon runners do.

Thinking about it, endurance would be related to efficient specific oxidative pathways to specific muscles. Swimmers and runners have endurance in different ways, and the crossever is minimal, hence triathlons.

Stamina would, hypothetically-I'm just thinking out loud--be related to an efficient, non-specific, "systemic" pathway. Efficient use of energy, which in turn would be tied to efficient use mental and emotional energy, in addition to physical energy.


I just reread the original post, and I think what you are talking about is VO2 Max/Lactate Threshold training, which I personally--rightly or wrongly--have never associated with the word stamina.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 08:57 AM   #4
Roger Harrell
Affiliate Roger Harrell is offline
 
Roger Harrell's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Rafael  CA
Posts: 2,318
Koalas are not fast...

Sorry, couldn't resist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 09:17 AM   #5
Stephen Troy
Departed Stephen Troy is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 94
It seems in the modern philosophy of physical training that all conditioning can be broken into 2 arenas, endurance and anaerobic

This is really, really, not true. Check out some of the modern S&C books by Siff, Hatfeild, Verkoshansky, etc.

But don't get paralysis by analysis.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 11:54 AM   #6
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
That was from a thing the comedian Kevin Pollack did on the Bob and Tom show, parodying Christopher Walken, who apparently has difficulty connecting thoughts together. I was crying. He is very funny.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 01:09 PM   #7
Robert Wolf
Member Robert Wolf is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chico  CA
Posts: 2,669
Christopher-

Kick-*** first post!! Here are some goodies to consider:
http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm
http://home.hia.no/~stephens/interval.htm

What you are onto is good IMO and some of this may flesh it out a bit. In the Time Course paper Seiler talkes about the 3 waves of adaptation. From a CF perspective, and to avoid the problems you mentioned with endurance athletes we want the first wave adaptations, a few of the second and none of the third.

The paper on interval training illustrates that intervals are almost as good at producing the highest level of endurance adaptations, but without the 2nd and 3rd wave adaptations. For the very, very highest levels or endurance the 3rd wave adaptaions may need to occur (this may not be the only route however as we are seeing endurance athletes increase their AT and overall performance using this mixed modal technology...time will tell how this stacks up in a head to head comparisson of pure endurance performance) but from our generalist training perspective that is an unacceptable bargain...and as I mentioned in the sideline, possibly un-necessary.

Dr Jim of Dynamax:http://www.medicineballs.com/

distinguishes endurance (oxygen transport) from stamina (substrate/fuel utilization. This is an important distinction and with the ideas form the other papers we can put something pretty beastly toghether:

In the MMA example you gave we want profeciency in all the areas of fitness:
http://www.crossfitnorcal.com/info/w...tion=standards
using a generalist approach we are able to obtain a very high degree of all these attributes in a relative sense but with none of the unfavorable adaptations wrought by excessive mono-structural training.

Sport specific training should create in a sense the 3rd wave adaptation of efficiency. Once you have thrown enough combos, swing arm bars and single leg take downs you have a degree of efficiency that is wed to the strength and conditioning base, hopefully to a higher degre than your competition and you go homw the winner.


That is my simpletons take on all this. There are other ideas out there. I was just looking at Charles Poliquins stuff and it is fantastic but it starts looking like quite a juggling game trying to switch things around in such a way to keep high end athletes form stagnating. For those who like charts grapsh etc. there are some very impressive looking representations of what I described...this just seems easier to both understand and implement.
Robb
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 01:17 PM   #8
Eugene R. Allen
Affiliate Eugene R. Allen is offline
 
Eugene R. Allen's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Tacoma  Washington
Posts: 1,715
During the CrossFit Certification Seminars Coach describes fitness with 4 fitness models. The first is the 10 general physical skills, the second is a statistical measure of how well an athlete can perform any given athletic task thrown his/her way, the third is the balance of the three metabolic pathways, and the fourth is the wellness model, the good health idea.

Christopher, your post seems to be addressing the stamina issue from the 10 general physical skills model and mixing it in with the balancing of the 3 metabolic pathways model. While you are not stuck out on some island someplace completely lost and forgotten, you may have strayed off the reservation...just a bit.

The first two items on the 10 general fitness skills model are 1. Cardio-vascular and cardio-respiratory endurance and 2. Stamina. While the cardio components relate to gas exchange and your ability to get oxygen to your muscles, stamina relates to muscular endurance and the ability of your muscles to keep working under load. They are related certainly, but are distinct fitness elements as well.

The model that regards the balance of metabolic pathways is about the phospho-creatine or phosphogen pathway, the glycolytic or lactate pathway and finally the oxydative or aerobic pathway. The first two are anaerobic (of course nothing we do is truly without oxygen, the term relates to an effort level that is at an intensity that creates more lactate - a waste product of your muscular effort - than your body can process and clear from your blood) and relate to explosive and/or very high intensity efforts. If you are exercising aerobically you are moving slowly enough and/or have become efficient enough (Mark Allen runs 5:30 miles at an aerobic HR in a marathon after the 2.4 mile swim and 112 mile bike) that your body can clear the lactate from your blood and use it as fuel for your heart. Lactate is by no means entirely bad. The phospho-creatine or phosphogen pathway is for efforts of up to 10 seconds of absolute max effort and the glycolytic or lactate pathway peaks at about a minute and then tapers off to a max time of about 2 minutes depending on training and pain tolerance. The aerobic pathway just goes on and on and is sustainable to the degree that the athlete trains this energy system.

I do agree that endurance athletes are generally weak (I am testimony to this notion) and strength athletes generally don't have great endurance. As Coach says nature will generally punish the specialist. But your statement that: "Stamina is your ability to carry out a particular activity, involving explosive/dynamic movements for an extended period. Stamina doesn’t fall direct under strength or endurance, it is somewhere in between." is slightly off the mark because stamina isn't something that exists between strength and endurance, nor is it the bastard child of their unholy union. Rather it is descriptive of the ability of one's muscles to function under load for extended periods which is entirely different from the cardio pathways.

You are right on the mark though when you say: "Cross Fit is probably the best foundation I have seen for building stamina." But it would be more accurate to say that CrossFit is the best foundation for building the 10 general physical skills, for developing an ability to perform any given athletic task, to balance the 3 metabolic pathways and to promote wellness.

Your observations are generally correct but your definitions were slightly out of synch. This is all black box stuff that is facinating but as Stephen says don't get paralysis by analysis. If you put it into the black box and improvement comes out the other end...run with it, don't get too wrapped up in the physiology of it all. Leave that to Handsome Robb, Coach and Mark Twight and the rest of the big brain people. Oh, and Dan Silver. He's smarter than he lets on.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 01:24 PM   #9
Stephen Troy
Departed Stephen Troy is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 94
Cristopher, I didn't see this was your first post, this is actually pretty thoughtful. I initially bristled a little at what I thought was an anti-science post, and completely missed the mark. Consider me chagrinned. :blush:

It does make sense that a program like CF is going to be most effective at developing stamina for a generalist. You might like something along the lines of Supertraining if you are into the intellectual stuff behind training. It's not going to explain why CF works, but it does provide a working foundation on understanding how different aspects of training interrelate.

Apologies for nitpicking!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2005, 01:42 PM   #10
Christopher M Combs
 
Profile:  
Posts: n/a
Wow, I guess I need to do some reading. I have no idea what the 10 general physical skills are or any of the other scientific explanations I heard. My definition of stamina is probably incorrect, but I used it because I have no idea what the correct term is. Thanks for the enlightening information guys.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Endurance vs Stamina Franklin Shogie Fitness 13 10-06-2008 10:57 AM
Muscle Strength/Endurance Darrell E. White Fitness 13 02-04-2007 07:47 AM
CF North standards -- strength vs. strength endurance John Frazer Fitness 5 09-03-2006 07:40 PM
Strength endurance vs power endurance Kurt Ronald Mueller Fitness 4 03-13-2006 01:39 PM
Strength vs Endurance Frank C Ollis Fitness 12 03-06-2003 11:09 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.