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Old 08-21-2006, 01:55 PM   #31
George Cazenavette
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From Ted:
MMA events are no real fighting, first and foremost. Just because you see someone beat on someone else in a ring doesn't mean they can do the same in a self defense situation. I didn't think KM was created for sport, so comparing it to a sporting event is a non-starter

I agree with the overall thought that I think Ted was putting forth. I believe participants in MMA events are really fighting however, you train for the situation you will find yourself in. I would suspect a person transitioning from UFC to PRIDE would train somewhat differently because the rules are different. In real life there are no rules. That brings me to an article I read at Aikido Journal. The short version is this: A seasoned older martial arts practitioner was challenged by a younger hot head that had observed a demonstration. He called out the instructor and the instructor obliged him. When the fight commenced the younger man went on the attack and mounted the instructor. He was unaware that the instructor had secreted a shoelace up his sleeve. It was quickly used to choke out the younger foe. Under UFC rules the younger man may have very well prevailed, but once again in real life there are no rules!
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:10 PM   #32
Jay Hanewinkel
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Be honest with yourself: who are you going to bet your life savings on coming out of a self defense situation alive or less scathed: Shogun Rua or joe schmoe Krav Maga practitioner who studied for an equal number of years as Shogun.
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #33
Ted Williams
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George, that's still not a self defense situation. My mother being stalked and car jacked is a self defense situation. Can you train her to be effective in MMA to "combat" that sort of situation? You know what I mean?

Mike,

So, are MMA fights between two consenting individuals?

Are there accepted rules that are agreed upon before entering the fight or match?

Are you psychologically prepared before going to the match, having picked the day, trained, and set up the rules?

I would say all those things are true, and are pretty much the opposite of a self defense situation. I don't count typical ego driven bar fights as self defense situations, they are more disturbing the peace.

The Gracies have made their away through a lot of military and LE circles...I would personally avoid BJJ and the ground fighting mindset for obvious self defense reasons. I definitely think ground fighting is important, but that whole mindset, ground and pound, seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
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Old 08-21-2006, 03:44 PM   #34
Barry Cooper
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Random, poorly connected thoughts:

With reference to the Rest Day article yesterday or whatever, it seems to me there are multiple complex systems in play. There are differences between systems on theoretical, practical, and expressed levels, and the same person may react to the same situation in different ways on different days, or with only minor differences.

These discussions recur over and over because, at the root of it, the people conducting them have, at some level, a fear of being in a position where we lose our power to act effectively.

A key problem, though, is it's not always clear what the problem is that we are preparing for. In MMA, you know what the problem is. You even know who the person is, and you can study them in detail. You will have gloves, and you will not be rolling on broken glass or gravel. They won't punch you in the throat, chop your neck, or clap your ears.

Gracie Ju Jitsu is THE correct solution to some situations. So is boxing, and so are other approaches. I don't think there is any ONE best approach.

With respect to Krav Maga, the art itself, in some form, dates back to the Israeli War of Existence, as it should have been called. It was tried and tested. I have stated before my theory that a lot of it depended on ideas from Moshe Feldenkrais, who essentially states in one of the interviews I read with him that he killed more than one person with his bare hands, in chokes. The violence began long before 1948, and in the early days most of the combatants on both sides didn't have guns.

As I understand it, there are two versions: a street legal one that will likely not get you put in jail, and a military one, whose purpose is to kill the opponent efficiently.

I may be wrong, but based on the limited number of UFC fights I've seen, it is very, very hard to take someone down without exposing yourself to a hard chop to the neck. That hit is illegal in the UFC, and hard in any event to do with gloves, but I feel that no matter how much any of us think we know, we need to remember how many badasses there are out there,and remain confident, but not OVERconfident.
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:23 PM   #35
Matthew Nielsen
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"I may be wrong, but based on the limited number of UFC fights I've seen, it is very, very hard to take someone down without exposing yourself to a hard chop to the neck."

You're wrong about that. It is very hard to hit someone when they shoot in on you. If it was easy to time a chop to the neck, don't you think it would be easy to time a knee or a punch when someone shoots? Just doesn't happen very often.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:13 PM   #36
Jay Hanewinkel
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A chop to the neck won't do anything to anyone anyway.

I'll again state the fact that modern army combatives, based on bjj, is having tremendous success on the battlefield of Iraq and Afghanistan, saving soldier's lives. There are over 340 DOCUMENTED situations. NO other fighting style used by any military has had this success. All these so called deadly techniques don't work for obvious reasons. Krav Maga has never been proven by documented fights.

Lastly, nothing you teach anyone, man, woman, or child, in a few hours, sessions, or weeks, will work. Anything worth knowing takes a lot of practice. There is no arguing this. To remember techniques they must be practiced realistically against a fully resisting opponent enough times and for long enough to make them natural movments. You must have a fight strategy. The list goes on.
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Old 08-21-2006, 10:18 PM   #37
Dan Strametz
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Unless you use natural movements as a means to the end. Now you have Krav Mega.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:37 AM   #38
Jay Hanewinkel
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Natural movements get you beat up.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:52 AM   #39
Larry Lindenman
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Jay, who developed Krav Maga? Yeah, the Israeli Army knows nothing about combatatives. Secondly, it's not the martial art, it's the individual and the attributes he/she brings to the table. The top 1% in any martial art are going to be hard to beat. Additionally, combative effectiveness is only the tip of the martial "ARTS" iceberg. If you are training to hurt people, you're a moron. I feel I have a fairly good grounding in martial arts and real world combatatives (24 years Kali, Jun Fan, MT 17 years as a cop in a major urban area), Jeff Martin is a excellent martial artest and a really good guy. I'd want my kids learning from him. He teaches Krav Maga. I would also say street fights are won and lost based upon who hits first...with the element of surprise. Grappling, trapping, kicking, and punching are all irrelevant when your talking with someone, and out of nowhere he hits you in the jaw. Guys who don't follow rules and are vicious have an advantage. "My martial art is better than yours" is a stupid age old argument. If you can't learn from everyone, you just don't get it...grow up.
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:27 AM   #40
Larry Lindenman
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Also, 340 documented hand to hand situations? I have to call BS here. Think about that, your implying American solders found themselves in a CQB situation, alone, with no weapons, but their martial arts training...and went Mano e Mano with the bad guys...please. I've done over 250 high risk search warrants, hit one guy. Now, I locked a lot of guys, when they were on the ground, after being flash banged and with teammates covering them with rifles. If our guys are grappling one on one with the enemy in Iraq, we have some problems and may want to stop teaching BJJ so the guys stop showing off their grappling skills. If your counting flexcuffing compliant prisoners, diffrent story. Check the stories behind the stats, you will see a completly diffrent picture.
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