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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 10-03-2014, 07:09 PM   #31
Chris Mason
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Re: Simple and sinister

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Originally Posted by Adam Shreim View Post
because I am drinking the KB community kool-aid right now.

The same muscles I use for pulling are definitely getting worked. Hamstrings, back, core and grip are all getting taxed. It will be worth a shot, none the less. Even if I hit 390-395 over 385, while reducing my body weight from by 16#, I'll take it.

If I can't pull 5-10# over my previous 1RM, I believe it would be due to way pulling a heavy DL feels. Not because I am not strong enough (you know that crappy feeling you get).
Just remember, you are training muscular endurance right now, not absolute strength. The only way your absolute strength will go up is if it was relatively undeveloped to start.

I have no problem with what you are doing. It is just that your expectation is likely unrealistic.

If swinging kettlebells all day long was good for absolute strength beyond that of a beginner, a lot of strength athletes would be doing it and not trashing the hell out of their joints with really heavy work .
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:18 AM   #32
Bob Herald
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Re: Simple and sinister

I think it would be beneficial for one who is hoping to increase his grip and hamstring strength, his hip hinge pattern, and explosiveness. But of coarse the best route to raw strength and absolute strength will always be the barbell.

Trying to increase absolute strength without training in the higher percentages of your max is probably ****ing in the wind.

But for me, I'm a competitive grappler, and I'm old (37) and heavy weights beat me up. For a recreational guy like me kettlebells are a good fit.

Chris what do you think of Dan johns research on kettlebells?

Last edited by Bob Herald : 10-04-2014 at 07:25 AM. Reason: Edit
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Old 10-04-2014, 08:41 AM   #33
Adam Shreim
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Re: Simple and sinister

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Just remember, you are training muscular endurance right now, not absolute strength. The only way your absolute strength will go up is if it was relatively undeveloped to start.

I have no problem with what you are doing. It is just that your expectation is likely unrealistic.

If swinging kettlebells all day long was good for absolute strength beyond that of a beginner, a lot of strength athletes would be doing it and not trashing the hell out of their joints with really heavy work .
I have been training strength since at least 2010 and my BEST deadlift is 405 at a body weight of 228#. I am around 210# now with a deadlift around 385-390. I would place myself in beginner category, still.

5/3/1 wasn't good for DL progress for me. 19 reps of 320# deadlift didn't translate well into increasing my 1RM.
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Old 10-04-2014, 09:26 AM   #34
Shawn M Wilson
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Re: Simple and sinister

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Originally Posted by Adam Shreim View Post
I have been training strength since at least 2010 and my BEST deadlift is 405 at a body weight of 228#. I am around 210# now with a deadlift around 385-390. I would place myself in beginner category, still.

5/3/1 wasn't good for DL progress for me. 19 reps of 320# deadlift didn't translate well into increasing my 1RM.
The thing is most people are still beginners and can experience strength increase off of some crazy programs. Once you hit a certain threshold it really requires a good lifting program to see continued and progressive increase.

Yes 15 reps will help up to a point but the there comes a time that it has to be singles and triples (that is the simplistic way of describing). It takes time and good nutrition.

When I hit 450 DL from a 395 it was from every week doing singles and triples one day a week plus a light day.
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:43 AM   #35
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Simple and sinister

"19 reps of 320# deadlift"

Huh? I've done 5/3/1 for most of the last two years and have NEVER done those kinds of numbers. No wonder your maximal strength improvements were slow.
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:52 AM   #36
David Meverden
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Re: Simple and sinister

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Originally Posted by Adam Shreim View Post
I have been training strength since at least 2010 and my BEST deadlift is 405 at a body weight of 228#. I am around 210# now with a deadlift around 385-390. I would place myself in beginner category, still.

5/3/1 wasn't good for DL progress for me. 19 reps of 320# deadlift didn't translate well into increasing my 1RM.
I think you need a coach, either in person or remotely. Someone with experience and an outside perspective to look at your lifts and help you implement a program. I've self coached myself a lot as well and it's very easy to end up spinning your wheels because you're not using a program as intended, or you become fixated on the wrong thing. The 5/3/1 reference is one reason I think this: 19 rep set is WAY over, in terms of reps, where your 5+, 3+, or 1+ deadlift sets should be on 5/3/1. If you had had a coach helping you get the reps back on the right track and helping you pick out assistance work that is good for you I think your deadlift would have progressed just fine.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:07 PM   #37
Adam Shreim
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Re: Simple and sinister

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"19 reps of 320# deadlift"

Huh? I've done 5/3/1 for most of the last two years and have NEVER done those kinds of numbers. No wonder your maximal strength improvements were slow.
My last 5/3/1 cycle, using 90% of 395: Week 1 (303, rounded to 305) was 26 reps. Week 2 (321, rounded to 320) was 19 reps. Week 3 (339) was 11 reps. Estimated max 463... not even close. Still 395. That was after doing a cycle using 385 as the calculated max, with similar results. I never drop the bar and if I have to wait more than a breath or roughly 3 seconds, I call the set. In fact, I didn't even budge 400 from the floor.

When I first moved to San Diego I posted a video of a 315# DL, with some of you in the thread replied to, and helped me fix my form. At that point my "max" was a rounded 365. My 315 was fairly sloppy. After I cleaned that up, I slowly progressed from 305 to 395 over the last few years. I have had set backs with a back and neck injury (not related to exercise) and an unexpected drop and rise in weight (from 192 to 171 then quickly back up over 210). I dabbled a lot in weightlifting to improve my C&J and Snatch, but don't like what it does to my knees.

Once I am done with this KB swing challenge, I will probably just try to do sets of 3-5s at higher %s to push my 1RM and resume a powerlifting style strength training program (but not 5/3/1. I may look into his 3/5/1 program).

My squat numbers are fairly similar on 5/3/1, whereas my Press & Bench are very much in-line with the estimations (i.e. 9-11, 7-9, 5-7 reps).
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:26 PM   #38
Shawn M Wilson
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Re: Simple and sinister

I've coached kids through 5/3/1 and all saw huge gains in lifts.

We focused form first then followed the program.

Key was hitting the right % / #

When they got to the 3 and 1 rep they were spot on or real close each time.

I even bought fractional plates for the bench as a 2.5lb increase each week provided good results there.
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:30 PM   #39
Adam Shreim
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Re: Simple and sinister

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Originally Posted by Shawn M Wilson View Post
I've coached kids through 5/3/1 and all saw huge gains in lifts.

We focused form first then followed the program.

Key was hitting the right % / #

When they got to the 3 and 1 rep they were spot on or real close each time.

I even bought fractional plates for the bench as a 2.5lb increase each week provided good results there.

When I first moved to San Diego = was in December of 2011. Form is fine. 5/3/1 just doesn't seem to illicit the same type of response, for me. I would have to try something like BBB or more strength specific exercises. It tends to make my strength-endurance improve much more than my maximal strength. I plan to try something closer to what they were programming in the Barbell Shrugged program for strength. Perform a 1-5RM for that day, then do 4 sets at 90% of that weight, afterwards. That has provided me the best results.
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:09 PM   #40
Bob Herald
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Re: Simple and sinister

5/3/1 worked great for me. It was the strongest I had ever been... on those lifts. I just found that increasing strength in those lifts wasn't beneficial for me in.

It took too much out of my recovery bucket and didn't transfer to my sport enough.

What were getting away from, is that we all respond differently to stimulus. There is no one size fits all approach to strength and conditioning. All athletes are strong and are lacking in different areas.

Kettlebells are a good fit for me. The strengthen my core, grips, and hips, without taking too much out of my recovery tank so I can train my sport. I also do a lot of calisthenics.

When one is involved in a sport that is not weightlifting, you should be using the "minimum effective dose" for strength training outside of your sport. Practicing the sport is priority.

If weightlifting is your sport you should be doing the lifts that you need to get stronger in at the correct loads.

If your sport is crossfit , you need to find what you're lacking in and shore up those areas.

Identify why you're training and reverse engineer the process.

Last edited by Bob Herald : 10-04-2014 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Grammar
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