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Old 05-02-2011, 08:37 PM   #11
Veronica Carpenter
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

Starrett isn't talking about squatting heavy weights feet forward. He's talking about creating/maintaining the greatest ROM and therefore maximizing balance between muscles and stability in the joints. When squatting max you're going to default to to position that your body is it's strongest given it's limitations. If you've got imbalances/mobility issues, you won't be performing near your potential. Work on your mobility, working your weakness in flexibility, and maximize your potential. You'll be lifting harder AND smarter.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:08 PM   #12
Terry Gibbs
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

I may be tragically missing his point or maybe it is a case of emperor's new clothes on his part.

Unless he knows a lot more about powerlifting knee blow outs than me, and afterall I am a nobody living in the land of OZ. My first experience with catastrophic knee blow outs is Paul Jordan at the 1977 Worlds. Paul was part of ABC's wide world of sport intro, for many years. Short summary was one knee blew out, ankle rolled, other knee went and he buckled under. It was the first knee blowout that got any publicity, and at that time spotters were not looking to cover such a complete collapse.

What happened on that day to cause such a failure? What went wrong with his technique?

Well what went wrong was that he had two cortisone shots in recent months in one knee. The knee was a mess. At a BBQ 2 1/2 months from the comp, I noticed Paul wince when a 110lb girl bumped into him as she walked by.

Now I don't know the medical history of Coan leading up to that day, but I am willing to bet that it was not his technique on that day, or maybe ever that caused the miss. Without knowing everything Ed had done leading up to it, it is just wild speculation.

On at least three other blow outs I am aware of there had been knee issues with the lfter, and the blowout was not a surprise.

Getting back to the 77 worlds Oz only had one medalist. Ron Wilton in the 148 squatted near 550lbs with a wrestling singlet and primitive wraps. AND he squatted medium stance with both thighs coming together out os the whole. The US lifters who had never seen him were amazed.

An outlier yes, but saw Jerry Jones cave in on a wide stance squat with 675 at 198 with no wraps or suit in 1974. There is no one size fits all answer in this game, there is noone who knows it all (Lou may come closest followed by the one who never speaks ...he has seen it ALL)

Oh yeah and Paul came back and squatted 700 a couple of years later, and is now a very sucessfull horse trainer. (they had to build a much bigger power rack though.)

but think somone has just walked down main street naked..someone should hand him a towel
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:13 PM   #13
Preston Sprimont
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

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Originally Posted by John Koshy View Post
I would be shocked if most of the guys at Westside could squat below parallel in their double ply gear, sumo wide stance, shins vertical, and feet pointed straight. Also, how do you "shove" your knees out if your feet are pointed straight??
I would be shocked too. Then again, I'd be shocked if all the guys at Westside could do the splits (extreme example)... just saying, as a whole (gross generalization approaching) powerlifters aren't the most flexible group of athletes out there. So just because the average powerlifter doesn't choose to or doesn't have the flexibility to squat with feet forward doesn't mean you shouldn't squat that way.

As far as shoving your knees out... well, just because your feet are pointed forward doesn't mean your legs are as well. You shove them out the same way you would with toes pointed out. Your hips and abductors should be able to shove your knees out just fine with feet pointing forward, barring lack of flexibility...

But like I said before, whatever works for you, do it. If you squat with wide stance and feet out at a 45 degree angle and that's where you hit your maxes and you don't jack your knees, that's probably how you should squat. I try to squat with toes more-or-less forward (it's tough!) because I find that I have a more "solid base" at the bottom to drive out of the squat. That being said, I'm tall and skinny and just starting my journey to get strong. Fo' sho' not a powerlifter.

Last edited by Preston Sprimont : 05-02-2011 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:22 PM   #14
Preston Sprimont
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

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Originally Posted by Terry Gibbs View Post

Getting back to the 77 worlds Oz only had one medalist. Ron Wilton in the 148 squatted near 550lbs with a wrestling singlet and primitive wraps. AND he squatted medium stance with both thighs coming together out os the whole. The US lifters who had never seen him were amazed.

An outlier yes, but saw Jerry Jones cave in on a wide stance squat with 675 at 198 with no wraps or suit in 1974. There is no one size fits all answer in this game, there is noone who knows it all (Lou may come closest followed by the one who never speaks ...he has seen it ALL)
I don't think Starrett is talking so much about having knees come in on a squat... That seems like a bad habit. I think he's talking about toes pointing forward and knees still going out.
If someone's lifting at or close to their max it's certainly not rare to see the knees come in a bit, but that doesn't mean that's proper form.
I think that getting in the habit of squatting with your knees caving in is a great way to screw your ACL or whavever-CL (fair warning, I'm terrible with anatomy)...
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:43 AM   #15
Preston Sprimont
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

Qualification to my statement: yes, he is talking about if and when the knees come in on a bad/failed squat, injuries being less serious when feet are straight forward. But my point is that knees caving in is never a good habit. I'm guessing that Ron Wilton and Jerry Jones would say that too, though their knees happened to come in on a heavy squat. So though it may happen, it shouldn't.
Apologies if I misread your comment...
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:23 PM   #16
Terry Gibbs
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

My point was because of the $$$$ out there these days, there are a lot of experts who are straining their expertise to the max to push their profile ..

internet gets dumber and dumber each day
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:26 PM   #17
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

haha, nothing much to contribute but I point a little, but not straight either. Kstar is my role model and he has helped me with many issues. He sounds like he is saying pointed feet is not a good habit to get into when we consider all the squat movements we do. He talks about landing from a jump or sprinting / blocking. This doesn't seem to be as much about squatting heavy weight as it does about how we catch a snatch, or clean , or box jump / long jump or sprint in a more ideal or injury reducing manner. If you are doing world record whatever, by all means keep doing whatever you are doing, but for the rest of us who understand we are embarking on health and basic level strength he is suggesting we take an investment in our knees.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:48 PM   #18
Preston Sprimont
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

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Originally Posted by Terry Gibbs View Post
My point was because of the $$$$ out there these days, there are a lot of experts who are straining their expertise to the max to push their profile ..

internet gets dumber and dumber each day
As far as I know, Kelly Starrett's Mobility WOD has very little to do with $$$$. It's free, the site isn't covered in advertisements, he doesn't ask for donations, etc. So if you are attributing his statement to some $$$$ compensation for pushing his profile, well, I doubt it. He seems to know his stuff and as far as I know the Mobility WOD is created out of his own generosity and passion for athletic health and performance. And he's the man.

That being said, if you are saying that Starrett is part of "internet" that is getting dumber and dumber each day, eh, I think that's incorrect.
If you are referring to me as part of "internet," eh, quite possibly correct.
But I don't think KStar is in error on this whole feet forward ordeal.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #19
Mauricio Leal
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

It's amazing to me how many people here think they're smarter than everyone who disagrees with them, especially people with, you know, some legitimate credentials. And no, supreme powers of irrefutable logic gleaned from wikipedia sleuthing and youtube mining do not make up for this gap.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:02 PM   #20
John Koshy
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Re: San Francisco Crossfit - don't turn feet out on squat?

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Originally Posted by Terry Gibbs View Post
I can see a pulling position where the feet point straight, but the only squatter of note I can remember with feet pointing forward is good old Ron Collins (won worlds 9 times) but his squat was not a thing of beauty.

The only time I archieved that foot position in the bottom of a squat clean ( was very tired at end of long workout .. I limped for weeks..and my left knee paid for it for years and years)

If I want great squatting advice I listen to a great squatter or someone who trains great squatters...

If I want to get shredded I don' talk to distance runners even if they are skinny..and are sometimes great athletes

just look over the advisor closely before talking ALL the advice
This is a very logical post. I've yet to see any record setting olympic lifters who squat with their toes pointed straight. Unless someone would like to correct me and show me a video? I deadlift with toes almost straight, but squats, low-bar, raw, and several inches below parallel, at a shoulder width stance, my feet are turned out about 30 degrees or so.
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