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Old 06-15-2010, 08:12 AM   #151
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Something all of the worlds healthy long lived societies have in common; they all eat largely plant based diets that include grains.
Oh you made a typo. Let me fix it for you:

they all eat a largely protein-rich diet with lots of plants and little to no grains.


you are welcomed.
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Old 06-15-2010, 08:37 AM   #152
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey White View Post
Oh you made a typo. Let me fix it for you:

they all eat a largely protein-rich diet with lots of plants and little to no grains.


you are welcomed.
I'm sure most of Asia would be surprised to learn that rice is not a grain.

I'm also sure that the folks who've studied the Okinawan diet would love to know more about your research, since *their* studies found that the traditional Okinawan diet is something like 80% carbs -- hardly protein rich.

You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts.

Katherine
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:35 AM   #153
Fred Hoang-Davis
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Re: Vegan Paleo

I don't like it when mommy and daddy fight
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:35 AM   #154
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

Not my facts:

73% of Hunter-Gatherers obtained <50% of their energy from animal products.
Only 14% of HG obtained <50% of their energy from plant derived food.

[cordain]




"I'm also sure that the folks who've studied the Okinawan diet would love to know more about your research, since *their* studies found that the traditional Okinawan diet is something like 80% carbs -- hardly protein rich."


You do know that the so-called "Okinawan Diet" is BS right? It's not what they actually eat, right? You have researched it, right? I mean if you keep bringing it up...


Here is a more scientific appraisal from PubMed:

The present paper examines the relationship of nutritional status to further life expectancy and health status in the Japanese elderly based on 3 epidemiological studies. 1. Nutrient intakes in 94 Japanese centenarians investigated between 1972 and 1973 showed a higher proportion of animal protein to total proteins than in contemporary average Japanese. 2. High intakes of milk and fats and oils had favorable effects on 10-year (1976-1986) survivorship in 422 urban residents aged 69-71. The survivors revealed a longitudinal increase in intakes of animal foods such as eggs, milk, fish and meat over the 10 years. 3. Nutrient intakes were compared, based on 24-hour dietary records, between a sample from Okinawa Prefecture where life expectancies at birth and 65 were the longest in Japan, and a sample from Akita Prefecture where the life expectancies were much shorter. Intakes of Ca, Fe, vitamins A, B1, B2, C, and the proportion of energy from proteins and fats were significantly higher in the former than in the latter. Intakes of carbohydrates and NaCl were lower.

…the reality of the Okinawan diet from Okinawan Cuisine:

Pork appears so frequently in the Okinawan diet that to say "meat" is really to say "pork." Everything from head to tail is used. As the saying has it, only the "oink" and the toenails go begging. It is no exaggeration to say that the present-day Okinawan diet begins and ends with pork.Especially in the case of hogs, what the meat lacks in (vitamin A, D and others), the entrails more than make up for it. The stomach and innards are cooked together in a clear "Nakami" soup. The liver and heart, together with vegetables, make "Motsu" (giblet) dishes.

These dishes contain high-quality protein and are rich in vitamins and minerals.We have the belief in Okinawa, based on the philosophy of food as medicine, that when one or more of your internal organs is out of kilter, it is good to eat the same innards of animals. The idea is to eat a food that supplies whatever is lacking.Pig feet and pork with the skin on are washed under boiling water and then simmered and eaten. The skin contains a high-quality protein called collagen.

The Okinawans traditionally cooked their vegetables in pork lard too.


"The Satsamu sweet potato provides the largest part of the energy intake" (from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11710358 w/f/s)

Hey, that's not a grain!

Also, Chinese people eat very low carb and very high fat if they can afford it. A dinner out with Chinese people typically has no rice or other carbs. The most common dish is stewed pork fat over greens (said to be chairman maos favorite dish). Fish is served sitting in the bottom of a large bowl of oil, you have to reach in with your chopsticks. When you eat at a stewed catfish restaurant, they come around with a bowl of tallow and spoon a blob into your food.

If rice is eaten at all, it is at the end of the meal as a dessert and is usually picked at or ignored.
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:49 AM   #155
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey White View Post
Not my facts:

73% of Hunter-Gatherers obtained <50% of their energy from animal products.
Only 14% of HG obtained <50% of their energy from plant derived food.

[cordain]
I'm not talking about hunter gatherers. I'm talking about modern cultures with the highest life expectancies.

Quote:
"The Satsamu sweet potato provides the largest part of the energy intake" (from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11710358 w/f/s)

Hey, that's not a grain!
No, but it is a carbohydrate. A diet that gets 80% of its calories from carbohydrates is not what most people here would call "protein-rich."

There's a detailed calorie breakdown at
http://www.okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr..._1114_434s.pdf (WFS, PDF)

Macronutrient ratios: 9% protein, 85% carbs, 6% fat
Grains account for 19% of total calories, sweet potatoes for 69%
(Note that this link draws on earlier data than the one you posted. The global decline of traditional food cultures is a whole other topic.)

Quote:
Also, Chinese people eat very low carb and very high fat if they can afford it. A dinner out with Chinese people typically has no rice or other carbs. The most common dish is stewed pork fat over greens (said to be chairman maos favorite dish). Fish is served sitting in the bottom of a large bowl of oil, you have to reach in with your chopsticks. When you eat at a stewed catfish restaurant, they come around with a bowl of tallow and spoon a blob into your food.
And as more and more Chinese people have gotten rich enough to afford to eat like that, Chinese people have begun to suffer from the same "diseases of affluence" that Americans do. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

FWIW, the Chinese people I've personally shared meals with ate plenty of rice.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 06-15-2010 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:09 AM   #156
Kevin Burns
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Re: Vegan Paleo

Anyone happen to notice the physical attributes of people in societies that have grain-rich diets ?
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:15 AM   #157
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
I'm not talking about hunter gatherers. I'm talking about modern cultures with the highest life expectancies.



No, but it is a carbohydrate. A diet that gets 80% of its calories from carbohydrates is not what most people here would call "protein-rich."

There's a detailed calorie breakdown at
http://www.okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr..._1114_434s.pdf (WFS, PDF)

Macronutrient ratios: 9% protein, 85% carbs, 6% fat
Grains account for 19% of total calories, sweet potatoes for 69%
(Note that this link draws on earlier data than the one you posted. The global decline of traditional food cultures is a whole other topic.)



And as more and more Chinese people have gotten rich enough to afford to eat like that, Chinese people have begun to suffer from the same "diseases of affluence" that Americans do. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

FWIW, the Chinese people I've personally shared meals with ate plenty of rice.

Katherine
Not in my wife's family.

And so, you still haven't shown that they EAT GRAINS as their main carbohydrate. You'll notice that on your link only 19% total comes a combo of rice and grains. So out of their carbohydrate consumption, the majority (81%), doesn't come from grains.

In fact notice HOW MUCH FEWER rice and grains the consume compared to mainland Japan! That's going by your own stuff.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:20 AM   #158
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
I'm not talking about hunter gatherers. I'm talking about modern cultures with the highest life expectancies.
BTW, have you read "Outliers" or "Lights Out"? Nutrition is only one piece of the puzzle in longevity.

Last edited by Jeffrey White : 06-15-2010 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:48 AM   #159
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

In all these pages of thread, I've lost track of what we're even debating... So, to clarify, my position is that:
* Grains are an important food for all of the modern cultures with the longest lifespans.
* Therefore there is no evidence that grains should be universally avoided.
* And therefore grains are a perfectly acceptable source of calories.

While entertaining, the whole debate about what constitutes a "staple," a "grain-based" diet, or a "grain-rich" diet isn't particularly relevant to my underlying point. I'm certainly not arguing that grains should be anyone's *primary* source of calories, so go ahead and hit that straw man as hard as you'd like.

Katherine
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:56 AM   #160
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey White View Post
BTW, have you read "Outliers" or "Lights Out"? Nutrition is only one piece of the puzzle in longevity.
Oh, of course. Genes and activity levels play a huge role as well. As do other lifestyle factors like smoking. But this is a food-oriented thread in a Nutrition forum.

Katherine
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