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Old 07-28-2009, 08:16 PM   #41
Cormac O'Connor
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

After I discovered wing suits via youtube, I realized that some human beings just don't care too much about the 'risk' half of the 'risk/reward' equation.

Does anybody recommend WSBB for general health and fitness though? I seriously doubt it. Some of their tips and tricks can be incorporated into a general resistance training fitness/conditioning program, but it would be insanity to take the whole package.

I do think this dichotomy between training for health and training that carries a serious risk of injury is something that Rip could address in his books though. Much is made in 'Strong Enough?' about weight training for the elderly etc. but similarly, much is made about his own injuries and those who train competitively around him. The distinction between the two types of training is clear enough to me, but it nevertheless dilutes his message considerably and gives plenty of ammo to the very folks he's working to persuade of the benefits of weight training.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:53 PM   #42
Sam Ser
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Justin Shipley View Post
Like elite level sportspeople in any field, the injury risks are higher, and their incidence is greater, but these people KNOW the risks and BUDGET for them.
Just like boxers, or any other fighter, or a footballer...or any elite athlete, for that matter, powerlifters know they have a use-by date, and they budget accordingly.

Far be it for you and me to suppose what goes through through Dave Tate's, or any other elite athlete's, mind, and make judgements on their decisions. None of us are elite-level anything, and have no window into the mind-set that drives and maintains a competitor through years of performance, and the flipside of injury and rehab, that competing at this level entails.

Listing the injuries sustained by Dave and asking if it's an acceptable price to pay, I'd say "Hell, no!", as would most others on this board. But again, we're not, with the exception of a couple of posters, competitive powerlifters, let alone top-level. So we dunno we'd consider acceptable.

I used to box. And for everybody I knew who didn't, or hadn't ever boxed, could just never understand what compelled me to train as hard as i did, to come home several nights a week cut, bleeding, bruised and sore, only to go and do it over again for years, risking (and suffering) broken bones and brain damage.
But I, and my fellow pugilists, definitely understood the risks. And rewards.
And we budgeted and trained accordingly.
As did Dave, I'm sure.
i fully recognize that each athlete makes a personal choice. indeed, dave tate wrote in that same listing of his injuries (it was an explanation of his decision to retire from powerlifting) that he wouldn't have changed a thing about his training, injuries and all. i understand that, as far as he is concerned, it was worth it.

however, as winston churchill said: “however beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.” the results of elite powerlifting training may be the maximization of one's potential for limit strength, but they are also almost always severe and repeated injury. from a health standpoint, that's an irresponsible bargain.

(if a trainer injured 80% of all the horses he ran, we'd call it abuse, right? even if those horses WANTED to run so fast that their legs snapped?)

in the case of boxing, state boxing commissions that believe a fighter risks severe damage from continuing to fight refuse to issue that fighter a license. (at least, the responsible ones do.) in mma, if a cut puts a fighter at risk, the fight is stopped. when he's being beaten and is no longer capable of defending himself, the fight is stopped.

we ought to have, and encourage others to have, a sense of when to pull back for our own good.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:03 PM   #43
Chris Sinagoga
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

[quote=Stuart Buck;631902]1. He says that for deadlift, the shoulders should be in line or behind the bar, NOT in front (which would be the case for Olympic lifting). He has a guy deadlift by saying "shoulders behind like you're going to fall over." This is contrary to Rippetoe's advice, as well as the advice on many threads here. Thoughts?QUOTE]

i think i remember him answering that question in one of the parts of the vids. he said the deadlift with the shoulders in front of or in line with the bar is more applicable to the olympic lifts (considering the fact that just about every oly lift starts with a deadlift of some sort). that's why he said power lifters shouldn't oly lift and the other way around. for an olympic lift, you have to perform some kind of dynamic move after the dead and the bar is in more control if you stay over it. if you are just training for the deadlift, you don't have to do anything dynamic with the bar after you lift it.

i'm by no means an expert but that's how i understood it. and personally, i love his videos and love his personality. i think he brings a lot to the CrossFit community!
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:35 PM   #44
Bert Brams
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Sam Ser View Post
no doubt, dave tate and all the guys like him are very, very good at what they do. all i'm saying in regard to the injuries (and the diet) is that becoming THAT good comes with a price. it would be foolish to pretend that it doesn't.

regarding dave's seminar and elitefts, i have seen a few clips by jim wendler, and liked them. notably, he seemed much more comfortable with his material than dave did in the cf seminar.

...by the way, bert, how tall are you? you look very muscular for 165 pounds, especially from my perspective at around 5'9", 157-ish. i'd feel much better about the gap between your numbers and mine if i could console myself with the knowledge that you're actually a powerlifting oompaloompa.
Jim Wendler really is the man. All his stuff is very intuitive and makes sense. That 5/3/1 Program of his is very good, even if all it does is teach one to think with a mindset of "less is more" or "if it's broke, fix it".
He'd NEVER say "Getting injured is for pussies, balls to the wall forever!" or something like that. Love the guy and his dry humor.

I'm 5'8(1 meter 74)
My weight hovers between 74 and 77 kilos, but usually I'm at 75.
Have done a lot of powerlifting, but I'm anything but built to lift, more of a natural sprinter. Only lift that I'm "built" to do is the deadlift

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lanza View Post

Perhaps it's simply a body-type preference, but I agree with Bert --> keep reading and experimenting. By the way, Bert, nice numbers at the bottom of your post. Must be the Belgian hops in that keg you're carrying.
Thanks man!
Beer and chocolate man, beer and chocolate ... these paleo guys are way off
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:25 AM   #45
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

compare dave's cf seminar to this video clip on youtube (NOT wfs), where dave is in his element and clearly very comfortable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3t6T-nqP0

now, THAT is worth watching and listening to.
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:55 AM   #46
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

I like Dave. He's real, he's not putting on a show like Tony Robbins at a polished hotel convention center. He's not a ****ing *******, in other words.

As regards the videos, they reminded me that I used to be able to deadlift more than I do now precisely because I had my hips closer to the bar. I got one thing out of these videos that I hadn't entirely concluded until I watched these videos: deadlifting is a matter of overall strength (as determined by all things neurological, muscular, and motivational) multiplied by setting yourself properly at the start - hips close to the bar, weight on the heels, every muscle activated, etc. I still don't think that it has the same sort of transferable import as gymnastics or olympic lifting do.
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Old 08-01-2009, 01:17 PM   #47
Neil Fonseca
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Benjamin Smith View Post
Errr... If Dave Tate's methods did not work, he would be some no-name coach.
No he wouldn't, he would be a champion powerlifter who spent years training at Westside Barbell who probably knows a thing or two about programming, especially for advanced lifters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Brams View Post
This is hogwash.

For an olympic lifter, the deadlift is an assistance exercise, while for a powerlifter, it is a main exercise.

Technique will of course differ. There are so many different techniques for deadlifting, not just "sumo" or "conventional". Many cues, different movement patterns ... it is not as simple a lift as it seems, and it pays to take a look at your own lifting from various angles and from various opinions in order to improve ... THAT is what Crossfit is about.

Well, Dave is a great coach, actually ... but what always strikes me about the videos is how defensive some of the attending Crossfitters get.
Not to say you can't have an own opinion though.
Not sure if you understood my point. I wasn't talking about the deadlift from a programming perspective. Clearly, an olympic lifter and powerlifter use it differently in that sense. What I was saying was, for each individual, regardless of their training goal, there is an optimal way to perform a heavy pull. I am convinced, based on the anatomical evidence and the laws of physics, that the bar must be directly below the scapula as it comes off the ground to constitute an optimal lift. There are many successful coaches who preach the wrong things. I was saying that it is foolish to accept someone's idea solely on the basis of their perceived status as an "expert" without evaluating the facts.
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Old 08-01-2009, 01:44 PM   #48
Bert Brams
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Fonseca View Post

Not sure if you understood my point. I wasn't talking about the deadlift from a programming perspective. Clearly, an olympic lifter and powerlifter use it differently in that sense. What I was saying was, for each individual, regardless of their training goal, there is an optimal way to perform a heavy pull. I am convinced, based on the anatomical evidence and the laws of physics, that the bar must be directly below the scapula as it comes off the ground to constitute an optimal lift. There are many successful coaches who preach the wrong things. I was saying that it is foolish to accept someone's idea solely on the basis of their perceived status as an "expert" without evaluating the facts.
Hm, in that case I indeed misunderstood and I agree with the points you now make.

The big picture concerning the deadlift(or any exercise)is more or less the same, regardless of the individual ... such as the bar directly below the scapula, etc ...
Individual cues or preferences, such as rounded upper back lifting versus "straight" back lifting, are things you find out through trial and error.
Highly experienced coaches may be able to look at a lifter and say "you are a conventional puller and will pull best with a rounded upper back", but this is a rare thing.
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