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Old 07-27-2009, 01:37 PM   #21
Benjamin Smith
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Marcel Zwinger View Post
If Dave Tate was some no name coach then his method obviously would not work.
Errr... If Dave Tate's methods did not work, he would be some no-name coach.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:18 PM   #22
Bert Brams
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Neil Fonseca View Post
It doesn't matter whether they have an olympic or powerlifting focus. There can only be one way of doing a heavy conventional deadlift that is the most efficient.
This is hogwash.

For an olympic lifter, the deadlift is an assistance exercise, while for a powerlifter, it is a main exercise.

Technique will of course differ. There are so many different techniques for deadlifting, not just "sumo" or "conventional". Many cues, different movement patterns ... it is not as simple a lift as it seems, and it pays to take a look at your own lifting from various angles and from various opinions in order to improve ... THAT is what Crossfit is about.

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Originally Posted by Sam Ser View Post

also, he lost me when he was talking about doing singles instead of high-rep sets. first, he says to do singles, because your form degrades in multiple-rep sets. then, a minute later, he says your second rep in succession is always better than your first. huh? oh, and he also suggests high-rep sets of explosive "dimel deadlifts," which runs totally counter to the focused singles advice. scratching my head on that one.

i know he's really strong and all that, but he doesn't come across as a good coach in these videos AT ALL. it's a shame. maybe this is one of those cases where great athletes don't make great coaches...?
Well, Dave is a great coach, actually ... but what always strikes me about the videos is how defensive some of the attending Crossfitters get.
Not to say you can't have an own opinion though.
I did notice the same with people in the Westside Seminar videos though, who were all powerlifters. People are naturally resistant to change, I guess.

What concerns those singles or multiple reps:

The general Westside way of training deadlifts is to do singles ... however:

a) You warm up to these singles by doing triples and/or doubles.

For example:

135 x 5
225 x 5
315 x 3
400 x 1
445 x 1
500 x 1
545 x 1
600 x 1(90% of 1RM)
600 x 1
600 x 1
600 x 1

b) Although singles are preferred on deadlifts, they often use doubles or triples on their top sets, however, this is usually when they use the Dynamic Method(with or without bands and/or chains), or when doing a repetition deadlift, like a Dimel Lift, which is an ASSISTANCE exercise and is done for more than 3 reps(in the case of the Dimel lift, maybe even 15+ reps sets).

c) The reasons they use singles for training the deadlift are mostly:

- You are forced to use perfect form on the first rep of every set(which is, ONE rep). This is to counter the effect of the "better second rep". You have to train yourself to be perfect on every rep.

- You are able to squeeze in more volume at a higher intensity(more sets at a lift higher than 90% of your 1RM, for example)
The deadlift is an extremely taxing exercise when done for higher reps and is more likely to cause recovery problems when you do it for high reps often. Remember, the typical Westside program demands that you squat and deadlift twice a week. These are HARD sessions, so it is imperative that you recover in time(or close to it).

- Since your form is and should always be perfect, you are less likely to get injured.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:00 PM   #23
Stanley Walter
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

How can I drive 'back' and up with my shoulders? I have always used the 'shoulder a bit past the bar' technique to keep my back from rounding when I drive up.

Not that Tate is wrong.
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Old 07-27-2009, 05:46 PM   #24
Mike Romano
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Dave Tate is a big, strong, incredibly useful person. He has trained, or at least trained with, numerous, incredibly successful athletes, and was once an incredible powerlifter himself. He not only trains hard, he trains smart; smart enough to recover from a laundry list of injuries to full health, and smart enough to know when to buy out and lose weight. In short, he knows how to train effectively while minimizing injury. When it comes to strength, he is absolutely someone I would trust.

If one has any interest in getting big and strong, I think it would be foolish to ignore what he has to say. Furthermore, I think that it is of the utmost importance to expose crossfitters to as many different schools of thought in regards to powerlifting, olympic lifting, and even gymnastics and kettlebells as possible.
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:12 PM   #25
Justin Shipley
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Mike Romano View Post
Dave Tate is a big, strong, incredibly useful person. He has trained, or at least trained with, numerous, incredibly successful athletes, and was once an incredible powerlifter himself. He not only trains hard, he trains smart; smart enough to recover from a laundry list of injuries to full health, and smart enough to know when to buy out and lose weight. In short, he knows how to train effectively while minimizing injury. When it comes to strength, he is absolutely someone I would trust.

If one has any interest in getting big and strong, I think it would be foolish to ignore what he has to say. Furthermore, I think that it is of the utmost importance to expose crossfitters to as many different schools of thought in regards to powerlifting, olympic lifting, and even gymnastics and kettlebells as possible.
You're right; we do tend to stick to a narrow selection of favourites, don't we?
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:27 PM   #26
Cormac O'Connor
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romano View Post
Dave Tate is a big, strong, incredibly useful person. He has trained, or at least trained with, numerous, incredibly successful athletes, and was once an incredible powerlifter himself. He not only trains hard, he trains smart; smart enough to recover from a laundry list of injuries to full health, and smart enough to know when to buy out and lose weight. In short, he knows how to train effectively while minimizing injury. When it comes to strength, he is absolutely someone I would trust.

If one has any interest in getting big and strong, I think it would be foolish to ignore what he has to say. Furthermore, I think that it is of the utmost importance to expose crossfitters to as many different schools of thought in regards to powerlifting, olympic lifting, and even gymnastics and kettlebells as possible.
Dave's credentials were made clear in the video introduction by Coach, if people weren't familiar with Tate already.

I watched all the videos so clearly I have no intention of ignoring what he has to say. My problem is that whether due to poor preparation, a misalignment of the organizer's aims for the seminar and Dave's perceptions of Crossfitter's needs, poor editing, my own lack of familiarity with WSBB or WHATEVER, what he had to say was largely lost on me.

I'm guessing that the problems with the video was just teething pains. If his seminars turn into regular things, I'm sure we'll see a much more polished and focused product, like Rip's basic barbell cert vids.

Let's not turn this into a referendum on Tate himself. Maybe someone can point me to some better video references on Westside? I've read Simmons' basic outline on their method but that's it.
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:57 PM   #27
Jim Denofa
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Fonseca View Post
It doesn't matter whether they have an olympic or powerlifting focus. There can only be one way of doing a heavy conventional deadlift that is the most efficient. Rip provides anatomical reasoning for why the bar must be placed below the scapula. He asks you not to believe him because he is an expert, but rather because of his logical explanation of the facts. Dave Tate just claims that the laws of physics don't apply, even though every lifter who sets up with his shoulders behind the bar ends up shifting forward by the time the bar leaves the ground.

Part of what drew me to crossfit was the rejection of conventional wisdom and so called "expert" opinions in favor of drawing logical conclusions based on observed facts. If Dave Tate were some skinny no-name coach, would you still accept his ideas based on what you saw in the videos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK4UIxKIxtc w/f/s
This is one of the best deadlifts of all time. Who's coaching style do you think he follows? There is no "textbook" deadlift or squat. Every lifter has different proportions and every lifter should be encouraged to find their style. I let my athletes play with stance and starting positions on Back squats and deadlifts. I think Having these videos on the site is great for opening peoples eyes to different styles of doing the same things effectively.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:01 AM   #28
Sam Ser
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormac O'Connor View Post
Dave's credentials were made clear in the video introduction by Coach, if people weren't familiar with Tate already.

I watched all the videos so clearly I have no intention of ignoring what he has to say. My problem is that whether due to poor preparation, a misalignment of the organizer's aims for the seminar and Dave's perceptions of Crossfitter's needs, poor editing, my own lack of familiarity with WSBB or WHATEVER, what he had to say was largely lost on me.

I'm guessing that the problems with the video was just teething pains. If his seminars turn into regular things, I'm sure we'll see a much more polished and focused product, like Rip's basic barbell cert vids.

Let's not turn this into a referendum on Tate himself. Maybe someone can point me to some better video references on Westside? I've read Simmons' basic outline on their method but that's it.

this.

the OP asked what we thought of the dave tate VIDEO, not what we thought of dave tate.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:24 AM   #29
Sam Ser
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romano View Post
Dave Tate is a big, strong, incredibly useful person. He has trained, or at least trained with, numerous, incredibly successful athletes, and was once an incredible powerlifter himself. He not only trains hard, he trains smart; smart enough to recover from a laundry list of injuries to full health, and smart enough to know when to buy out and lose weight. In short, he knows how to train effectively while minimizing injury. When it comes to strength, he is absolutely someone I would trust.

If one has any interest in getting big and strong, I think it would be foolish to ignore what he has to say.

yes, he's big and strong. we get it.

but you know, those injuries didn't just happen to him. they were a product of his "very smart" training. (personally, i think training that helps you AVOID injury is smartest, but that's just me...)

he also had a HORRENDOUS diet that brought him this close to who knows how many illnesses.

and his seminar was poorly presented... which is really the only thing at issue here.

now, i'm sure he'd be able to present his ideas in a much better way a second time around. and i'm also sure that a lot of crossfitters will benefit from this video (i even said that i did). making a critique of the video of the seminar is not the same thing as trying to destroy the guy and banish him forever more from the realm of CF. so let's not all get our panties in a bunch over this.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:38 AM   #30
Sam Ser
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Re: What do folks think of Dave Tate video?

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Originally Posted by Bert Brams View Post
What concerns those singles or multiple reps:

The general Westside way of training deadlifts is to do singles ... however:

a) You warm up to these singles by doing triples and/or doubles.

For example:

135 x 5
225 x 5
315 x 3
400 x 1
445 x 1
500 x 1
545 x 1
600 x 1(90% of 1RM)
600 x 1
600 x 1
600 x 1

b) Although singles are preferred on deadlifts, they often use doubles or triples on their top sets, however, this is usually when they use the Dynamic Method(with or without bands and/or chains), or when doing a repetition deadlift, like a Dimel Lift, which is an ASSISTANCE exercise and is done for more than 3 reps(in the case of the Dimel lift, maybe even 15+ reps sets).

c) The reasons they use singles for training the deadlift are mostly:

- You are forced to use perfect form on the first rep of every set(which is, ONE rep). This is to counter the effect of the "better second rep". You have to train yourself to be perfect on every rep.

- You are able to squeeze in more volume at a higher intensity(more sets at a lift higher than 90% of your 1RM, for example)
The deadlift is an extremely taxing exercise when done for higher reps and is more likely to cause recovery problems when you do it for high reps often. Remember, the typical Westside program demands that you squat and deadlift twice a week. These are HARD sessions, so it is imperative that you recover in time(or close to it).

- Since your form is and should always be perfect, you are less likely to get injured.
thanks! wish dave had presented it this way.

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