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Old 04-03-2008, 02:21 PM   #51
Tim Luby
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
I have to disagree with you here. Though the power clean and power snatch (from the hang or otherwise) may be more applicable to sport in the long run, I think most coaches will agree that in order to power clean or power snatch with proper form, one must first learn the full Oly lifts (I use full here to describe pulling under into the squat, not necessarily from the floor.)
I don't disagree with your statement. I find that my technique is better on the full vs power versions of olympic lifts. However, how much time is a specialized athlete going to spend perfecting a lift when they can get the technique to a point where it will benefit [and not injure] them? It comes down to practicality and efficiency--not necessarily perfect form.
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Old 04-03-2008, 02:35 PM   #52
Brandon Oto
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

I asked Rip this at Strength Mill.

His response: that the slow pull from the floor was mostly a novice coaching cue, skilled lifters take it fast all the way from the ground, and consequently it's an explosive lift all the way through.
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Old 04-03-2008, 03:19 PM   #53
Tim Luby
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
I asked Rip this at Strength Mill.

His response: that the slow pull from the floor was mostly a novice coaching cue, skilled lifters take it fast all the way from the ground, and consequently it's an explosive lift all the way through.
Huh, makes sense. The skilled lifters also have a lot of weight on the bar, so the 1st pull looks "slow."
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Old 04-03-2008, 03:55 PM   #54
Veronica Carpenter
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
I have to disagree with you here. Though the power clean and power snatch (from the hang or otherwise) may be more applicable to sport in the long run, I think most coaches will agree that in order to power clean or power snatch with proper form, one must first learn the full Oly lifts (I use full here to describe pulling under into the squat, not necessarily from the floor.)

Gotta disagree. You can learn to power clean or snatch without having to first learn to do the squat clean/snatch. Most newbies to the o-lifts do just that because it's easier to learn.
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Old 04-03-2008, 03:55 PM   #55
Jason Staples
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
I asked Rip this at Strength Mill.

His response: that the slow pull from the floor was mostly a novice coaching cue, skilled lifters take it fast all the way from the ground, and consequently it's an explosive lift all the way through.
It's true, but athletes training for specific sports aren't trying to become "skilled lifters," they're training for a sport that involves other skills. For them, lifting is strictly practical/functional. There's not much benefit in getting slightly better as a "skilled lifter" when they can get basically the same results while putting more technique time into their actual sport skills.
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Old 04-03-2008, 03:57 PM   #56
Veronica Carpenter
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Tim Luby View Post
Huh, makes sense. The skilled lifters also have a lot of weight on the bar, so the 1st pull looks "slow."
Actually it's accelerated off the floor, not "pulled fast" from the get go. Kinda like taking off from a stop in a car.
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:12 PM   #57
Phillip Garrison
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

I would ask Louie, if a the full version from the floor is bad for sports, becuase of it's "slow" start, than why are squats, and deads from the floor using slow speed of benefit? I think Louie is a great coach, but his obvious bias against WL is well known. If lifts from the floor hurt power and performance, than why do most throwers, who live and die by the amount of power they can generate do lifts from the floor?
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:28 PM   #58
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Originally Posted by Tim Luby View Post
I don't disagree with your statement. I find that my technique is better on the full vs power versions of olympic lifts. However, how much time is a specialized athlete going to spend perfecting a lift when they can get the technique to a point where it will benefit [and not injure] them? It comes down to practicality and efficiency--not necessarily perfect form.
True. I wish high school athletes were taught the lifts correctly...man, wouldn't that change the entire scene? Better athletes and less injuries from lifting = more people doing the Oly lifts. Oh, what a world it would be.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:12 AM   #59
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Are you really arguing sprinters don't explode off the block; that their first step is slow and controlled; that they're thinking, "okay, nice and slow off that block for control while I build up some speed"??? Do you think this is the same for O-lineman, base runners, and return of serve? Obviously people don't actually "explode" off the line at top speed, but the intent is there, just as in powerlifting. Even thowers explode. Yes, they build up centrifugal force first with the spin but the actual throw is an explosion. Maybe I'm missing something with the short-track argument as I've never done it. But I have to believe you're coming off the line as fast as you possibly can without losing control. Sorry, Matt. I disagree completely.



Right, and the intent is instantaneous, full-speed movement.
No, sprinters aren't "in the hole" when they start out. You show me a sprinter who starts where both legs are calves to hamstrings, and I'll show you one slow sprinter off the start. Similarly, none of those other sports are "in the hole" when the movement starts either. But, weightlifting, the movement starts much lower than those other sports, hence the "slow" (controlled being a better word) initial pull.

Last edited by Matt DeMinico : 04-04-2008 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:54 AM   #60
Barry Cooper
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

I think if you consider that Louie is talking about direct transfer of applicability, he's right. The jumping part of the O-lifts is the second pull, and you can do that without dropping into a squat, and without pulling the weight from the floor.

At the same time, O-lifting teaches agility and balance, and builds flexibility. When I think of Powerlifters, I am happy to grant them great vertical jumps, tremendous loads carried on sleds, and of course brute strength. Agility, however, is not a word that comes to mind.

The simple fact, in all likelihood, is that most of Louie's guys can't get into position to do a squat clean, much less a squat snatch. I would hazard a guess there isn't one guy in his gym who can do a good overhead squat with significant weight. They bench too much.

This is the difference between GPP and SPP. They are great--world class--at what they do. Louie is by all accounts brilliant, dedicated, and generous. And he's right, here, within the framework of his argument. But there are added factors he's not mentioning, because they don't pertain to his specific objectives.
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