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Old 04-20-2008, 06:21 PM   #121
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

Improved explosiveness while chasing tennis balls?
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:26 PM   #122
Daniel Barulich
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Improved explosiveness while chasing tennis balls?
Precisely, which is why I include heavy hang power cleans when training my ball boys for Wimbledon. They really need that explosiveness off the line when Roddick nails a 150mph serve off the green and they've only got a few seconds to chase those balls down, or risk the possibility that I may have to wait an additional four tenths of a second to see the latest Saab commercial.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:37 AM   #123
Aaron Trent
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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What specific benefit would Roger Federer derive from training heavy snatches for 40-60 minutes as opposed to going out and working on his footwork and serve?
Strengthened shoulders, muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, prevention of overuse, more explosive hip drive...
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:45 AM   #124
Daniel Barulich
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

The hip drive in the olympic lifts is nothing like a natural tennis motion. I'd argue that doing Cleans is a waste for a tennis player, just because nothing in the sport lends itself to the transfer of that lift onto the field. I'd say the same for swimming and rowing as well.

What part of a serve or a backhand slice requires explosive opening of the hips.
Look at these videos of Roger Federer: Work and Home safe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXXM3...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHPdlGW4vEE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWC1h...eature=related

Please show me in those clips the explosive opening of the hips. Even in his serve his body moves more like a whip, in a lateral fashion, than in the same way a basketball player moves for a jump (more like a hang clean). There is virtually no hip drive in any of the other swings. Combine that with the fact that tennis players are often on the run, and do not necessairly square up to the ball or gather their feet in an organized manner that would simulate the start or catch position of an Olympic lift. I fail to see how Olympic lifts would benefit a tennis player in any fashion that wouldn't come at the detriment of his skill and sport specific conditioning.

I love the Olympic lifts and i love crossfit, I do both daily. However, I think that a large amount of people on this message board are kool-aid drinkers, and just cannot bring themselves to admit that certain athletes may not benefit very much, if any, from incorporating Olympic lifts into their routine any more than a swimmer would benefit from practicing a tennis serve to improve his 100m time.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:32 AM   #125
Joe Cavazos
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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However, I think that a large amount of people on this message board are kool-aid drinkers, and just cannot bring themselves to admit that certain athletes may not benefit very much, if any, from incorporating Olympic lifts into their routine any more than a swimmer would benefit from practicing a tennis serve to improve his 100m time.
You know, there's this running aspect to tennis... in fact, you could probably call it sprinting.

Unless you're going to tell me olympic lifts don't benefit sprinting.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:46 AM   #126
Matt DeMinico
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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The hip drive in the olympic lifts is nothing like a natural tennis motion. I'd argue that doing Cleans is a waste for a tennis player, just because nothing in the sport lends itself to the transfer of that lift onto the field. I'd say the same for swimming and rowing as well.
Well let me say something, the body position for the olympic lifts is completely OPPOSITE the body position for short track speedskating (we round and relax our back and keep our buttcheeks pointed down, oly lifters keep their back as flat and tight as possible, and stick their butt out). But olympic lifts have made me a ton better skater lately. The fact is, teaching your body to use those muscles sets the base, and your sport specific work does the rest.

I believe that you rarely, if ever, want your off-sport training to closely mimic your sport, even if you're a professional. Teach your body to work as a complete system to do things, and it'll learn your sport even better, even if your sport doesn't come CLOSE to the training movements.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #127
Daniel Barulich
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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You know, there's this running aspect to tennis... in fact, you could probably call it sprinting.

Unless you're going to tell me olympic lifts don't benefit sprinting.
Are you claiming that Olympic lifts are the only way to increase sprinting speed? Could there possibly be another method for increasing your sprinting speed without stressing the wrists and elbows, both of which are already highly taxed by the athletes practice?
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:35 AM   #128
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

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Well let me say something, the body position for the olympic lifts is completely OPPOSITE the body position for short track speedskating (we round and relax our back and keep our buttcheeks pointed down, oly lifters keep their back as flat and tight as possible, and stick their butt out). But olympic lifts have made me a ton better skater lately. The fact is, teaching your body to use those muscles sets the base, and your sport specific work does the rest.

I believe that you rarely, if ever, want your off-sport training to closely mimic your sport, even if you're a professional. Teach your body to work as a complete system to do things, and it'll learn your sport even better, even if your sport doesn't come CLOSE to the training movements.
Even if it doesn't come close? Really? So maybe next time I want to increase my sprinting i'll take a few laps in the pool, just so i can "teach it to work as a complete system". Which athletic movement doesn't require the body to work as a complete system? The difference is merely the degree of efficiency.

I'm not denying that there is no carry over in the Olympic lifts. It's undeniable. The question is the cost/benefit. Athletes don't train in a vacuum and they do have a limited amount of energy to which they can devote to strength training. Can a tennis player benefit from Olympic lifts? Probably, but I'd say the difference would be marginal, if any.

I'm just amazed at the one size fits all mentality for the Olympic lifts. Just because Olympic lifters beat out sprinters in a trial between specialists does not mean that Olympic lifts will procure the same benefits to athletes that are integrating the lifts in a small fraction of their training time. Federer could potentially Oly lift twice a week, but it's not going to shave off 2/10 of a second from his ability to get from one side of the court to the other.

Thinking the results of elite specialists will transfer over into an athlete whose body type, fiber distribution, and schedule load is completely different is just illogical.
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Old 04-21-2008, 02:38 PM   #129
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

It would seem that would be some universality, though. If I can generate more power, then if I'm a Tennis player my training sprints are faster, thus I'm faster on the court. In addition, I can generate more speed and power on the racket. Anecdotaly as described by Matt, Oly lifting does carry over to an unlike sport. I would propose that you black box it train some tennis players with Oly lifts and see what happens... oh, wait, Robb said he did that and it worked. I'm not sure what else to tell you. Don't do Oly lifts? Don't play tennis? Ask Federer to Crossfit?

In addition, two specialists were competing and the weightlifter beat the sprinter over 40% of a 100M race. Nothing in tennis is more than a 40 yd sprint is it? Faster is faster.

Last edited by Robert D Taylor Jr : 04-21-2008 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:40 AM   #130
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Re: more Louie Simmons: Olympic lifts not good for sports

You know... I've been hearing about that competition (weightlifters vs. sprinters) for years here and I have never, ever found someone who actually knows the details.

Does anybody out there have the background on when, where, and how this happened? Because otherwise, it's turned into a fairy tale.
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