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Old 10-02-2007, 06:37 PM   #11
Corey Duvall
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

I also found on wikipedia that the brain cannot utilize fatty acids as an energy source. I remember learning that in a few nutrition classes: we must routinely ingest a certain level of carbohydrate because excess carbs are turned into acetyl CoA which is then converted to fatty acids and cannot be used by the brain. Wikipedia DID say that the glycerol of triglycerides could be turned into an energy source by the brain. Triglycerides are three fatty acid chains and a glycerol back-bone; the glycerol back-bone being made of carbohydrate.

In summation, the brain cannot use fatty acids. It can use carbohydrates. I have a nutrition class on friday morning so I'll be sure to bring it up and try to get further clarification. I'll also be re-reading a few of my texts to brush up on it. I ALSO understand that research is constantly being updated so I'm certainly willing to hear other viewpoints.
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:47 PM   #12
George Mounce
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

The body can adapt to whatever is put into it. People have lived just fine on a full protein and fat diet when it was the only thing available. Just about anything is optional, but your health may really suck (thats just my opinion the last part).

It is flat wrong to say the body can't turn other things into glucose. It can (wfs):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...eogenesis.html

Now lets get into the state at which fat is broken down (wfs): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipolysis

Which directly relates to gluconeogenesis.

There is enough science on those pages to make eyes burn for awhile.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:33 AM   #13
Garrett Smith
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Well, all I have to say is this.

Long-term Atkins adherents should be dead if they had to have carbs.

Those of us doing a mostly meat & non-starchy veggie diet AND doing CF-style workouts relatively intensely should be dead if we had to have carbs.

There is the actual experiment of a gentleman around the turn of the century who, while under observation, lived for about a year on seal organ meat and blubber just to prove it could be done. He got healthier and leaner on that diet. Wish I could find that link--if someone else has it, please post. The Inuit have been doing it for a long time--fruits and grains don't grow too well up in the Arctic.

Robb Wolf's blog would be a good place to go if you need more science to back this up WFS http://*************/?p=18.

People used to believe the world was flat. People now believe that humans need carbs to live, even in the face of massive evidence to the contrary, both research and anecdotal (just go talk to the folks on the WFS www.PerformanceMenu.com).

What's that? A ketogenic diet has been shown to be extremely beneficial with neurological diseases, particularly epilepsy? Shouldn't they be dead? WFS http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/tre...enic_diet.html

David, no worries about me heating up in this argument. I don't have the time nor the desire to enter into that place.

Or, folks could just go on a meat and veggies diet for themselves and watch themselves NOT die, just get leaner and feel better.

About asking your nutrition teacher. Go ahead. I had a minor in nutrition. All of my teachers were overweight and unhealthy. I take that as a sign of the effectiveness of their "knowledge".

One last thing. Why do we crave carbs? Because our society has created excessively stressful lifestyles. Too much stress, too much cortisol. Excessive cortisol creates a desire for carbohydrates. Too many carbs, especially from the wrong sources (ie. grains, dairy, sugar, alcohol, etc.) causes all sorts of problems. Links WFS:
A New Perspective on Glucocorticoid Feedback: Relation to Stress, Carbohydrate Feeding and Feeling Better
Stress-Related Cortisol Secretion in Men: Relationships with Abdominal Obesity and Endocrine, Metabolic and Hemodynamic Abnormalities
It's not that humans need carbs, it's that our stress creates a craving for carbs to balance our blood sugar in the *short term*. What we need to do is reduce our negative stressors and/or our perception of them.

OK, time to go work out. I've said my piece.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:54 AM   #14
Jay Cohen
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

OK Dr. G;

This post I'm having laminated and posted in office, car, house, garage, gym.

Got to make it out your way to visit.

Thanks again, enjoy your input on these boards and PM. Will be reading your article on Nightshades today, along with the fact that I just ordered from my Grass Fed meat source, Liver, heart, kidney, tongue.
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:02 AM   #15
Brent Lucas
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

I'm no diet expert, but I have lived with Inuit in the far north of Canada and seen them adhere to their traditional diet with contained no plant foods of any kind at all.

All seal, all the time. Very much like that commercial:

"The animals eat the plants, WE eat the animals" Can't remember what that add was for LOL.

Carbs are optional, but I personally like a balance...

Here is a link (wfs) that describes another persons more recent experiment. It's not the one you referenced Dr. G, but I do know the one you are talking about, and if I remember correctly it' was done in the 1800's.

Just for the record, I get that fact that the brain can't use fatty acids for fuel, but the body CAN convert other food resources into brain fuel.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:20 AM   #16
Emily Mattes
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

The Cambridge World History of Food has a section (WFS) on the Inuit diet (read under "Human Nutritional Adaptation: Biological and Cultural Aspects"). Basically, the Inuit survived by becoming metabolically adapted to the diet and the environment. There was indeed an anthropologist, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who ate their diet for a year to prove it was possible to survive on a diet that was that low-carb. However, it's important to note that the Inuit diet involved a good deal of consumption of raw meat and raw animal fat (though it certainly did not constitute their entire consumption, and probably not even the majority). Not cooking the meat meant the vitamins and nutrients in it were not broken down, so there wasn't the need for vegetables and grains that in other cultures provide them. Apparently fresh (still warm), raw liver contains a lot of vitamin C! Who knew?

But before you go off eating raw meat--remember, the Inuit lived in the freakin' Arctic. Fewer parasites, fewer tapeworms, less likelihood of food contamination by bacteria and other nasties that pop up in more southern locales.

This diet is not without some side-effects. Here is a choice quote from the book:
Quote:
The high rate of gluconeogenesis in the Inuit requires large amounts of enzymes (which consist mainly of protein) for the conversion of amino acids to glucose and for the conversion of waste amino acid nitrogen to urea. These processes account for the large livers and urine volumes long associated with the Arctic Inuit.
In other words, they pee a lot.

Also, the Inuit are at risk for bone loss. The book says this does not seem to lead to corresponding rates of osteoperosis, but that is probably due to how their bones are built--shorter and thicker than those of Caucasian, Asian, or African descent. So non-Inuit adapting to this diet would need to get their calcium in other ways.

Reading through the rest of this book has been terribly interesting. If it wasn't so darn expensive I'd buy it.

Last edited by Emily Mattes : 10-03-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 09:45 AM   #17
Susie Rosenberg
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Brent, that was really a fascinating article. Thanks for posting the link.

What sticks with me is the expressed notion that humans do not require specific foods, we require specific nutrients, and those can be obtained from some pretty restricted sources, if the sources are right.

Now I've learned of three so-called 'paradoxes' to the American medical community's emphasis on lowfat diets: the French paradox (they eat fattened goose liver!), the Mediterranean paradox (they eat tons of olive oil!) and now the traditional Eskimo diet (they eat a lot of animal fat!).

I'm forming some conclusions for myself, based on a keen interest both in nutrition and food cultures:

1. Fat is not the enemy of good health. The #1 food enemy is industrialized food production of both vegetable and animal products. To wit: grain-fed meats and poultry, and farm-raised fish. (I've learned from the book THE OMNIVORE'S DILEMMA that farm-raised salmon is genetically modified to eat corn.) In other words, it's not the fat of the wild game or grassfed beef that's harmful, it's the trans-fats, high-fructose corn syrup, multiple forms of sugars and chemicals in manufactured foods that impact negatively on our health.

2. People that eat traditional diets have better heath profiles than those eating on the industrialized food chain because those manufactured foods don't appear on traditional tables.

3. You really have to make an effort to find clean foods. It ain't easy, and it ain't cheap, either.

4. It's not just what we eat, it's how we eat. Part of the craziness of the American table is that the way most of us eat separates us from each other rather than knitting us together, individuals to families to communities and cultures. (In 9th grade health, the teacher asked my son's class, "How many of you eat dinner with your family by sitting down at the table 4 nights or more a week?" My son told me, "Me and two Italian kids raised our hands." It was funny but not funny.)

I love how much I'm learning hanging out on this board... Thank you.

Susie
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:19 AM   #18
Garrett Smith
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Thanks Jay. Love to have you come down.

Thanks to you other guys for posting more info. That was the guy I was talking about.

As for the Inuit, it is quite possible that an all meat, all the time diet is not that great a diet long-term for humans. It's a very acidic diet. Also, I don't believe that hairless animals (like humans) should be living in the Arctic anyway. Add some good veggies to that plan and we might have the best nutrition plan ever.

So, carbs are optional. Carbs taste good. They are not by any means *necessary* for human life.
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Old 10-03-2007, 02:50 PM   #19
Corey Duvall
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Add some good veggies to that plan and we might have the best nutrition plan ever.

So, carbs are optional. Carbs taste good. They are not by any means *necessary* for human life.
I'm a little confused still. Vegetables contain carbohydrates. You're supporting vegetable consumption, yet they aren't necessary? I know now I don't currently have enough background in this to have made as bold a statement as I did before ("carbs ARE necessary"), but it seems to me you are contradicting yourself. Could you please clarify?

Perhaps carbs aren't necessary to SUSTAIN life, but to THRIVE they would be?

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Old 10-03-2007, 03:53 PM   #20
Scott Kustes
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Carbs are optional, but nice to have.
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