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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-31-2009, 04:34 PM   #61
Nathan Kulas
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Granted - there is the potential for injury with all-out sprinting. Same goes for power/heavy lifting. Make the appropriate resources available as is done for the lifts.

I'll testify that after switching from being a sprint athlete to a middle-distance athlete that I too pulled a hamstring in an all-out sprint (200m) due to inadequate sprint training and likely different requirements for warm-up.

However, I would personally laugh in Coach's face - despite how knowledgable he may be in terms of GPP - if he told me that Oly lifts + 400m is an adequate substitute for sprinting. If he truly believes that, he is sorely mistaken and really needs to do some research on the issue. As I have said in this thread previously - 100m repeats translate well to a 400m - but a 400m will have minimal impact on a 100m dash.

So far as the lifting? Yeah - its been shown that the deadlift (and increased leg strength in general) will certainly contribute to faster sprint times... take this article at dragondoor: http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/ (WFS) which cites the girls 200m high school record breaker in 2002... she had a much better than expected improvement in her sprint time by increasing her deadlift substantially.

I'm sure someone could cite this as evidence that the DL will improve sprint time - but thats not necessarily true. Ms. Felix was a trained sprinter and was combining her strength gains with a very strict sprinting routine.

Yes, strength training alone will develop your fast twitch (type II) muscles and even the ratio between them and the type I (endurance/slow twitch) muscles. This is well and good for sprinting - the problem you run into is the neural adaptations. Strength training, which focuses solely on power output adapts the CNS for a slower usage of the type II fibers - the neural adaptations are better suited for lifting heavy things and raw power output. Sprinting requires different CNS adaptations than what strength training provides, which includes the adaptation to produce high power output repeatedly in quick succession - and not necessarily the ability to produce 1-5 rep max power output.

DLs and leg strength won't improve sprinting if you are not also engaging in sprint training - and 400s do not qualify as sprinting - at least non in the WOD (fast jog) sense.

Strength training is done at a a speed that does not translate well to the speed and turnover rate that is required for sprinting. You need to couple the strength gains and increased Type II fibers with actual sprinting to realize an improvement.
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Old 12-31-2009, 04:57 PM   #62
Tyler Hass
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Hi Nathan,
I think Coach's bracketing argument does have some merit to it. I think GPP w/out sprinting can improve someone's sprint times. But they will never approach elite times. And I think a person will have better GPP and better sprint times by regularly incorporating them into the workouts. I think that's the whole topic of this discussion, whether or not sprints should be included in CrossFit. Since we're in agreement that the answer is "yes", the next important question is: how?

Tyler
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:44 PM   #63
Michael Ingley
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

sprints hit the p chain harder than any other exercise i do too
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Old 12-31-2009, 10:16 PM   #64
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Tyler Hass View Post
Hi Nathan,
I think Coach's bracketing argument does have some merit to it. I think GPP w/out sprinting can improve someone's sprint times. But they will never approach elite times.
Nor will a GPP program ever approach the performances achieved by elite powerlifters or elite gymnasts.

GPP is not specialist training, and doesn't claim to be.

Katherine
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:41 AM   #65
Alex Bond
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

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Originally Posted by Tyler Hass View Post
Hi Nathan,
I think Coach's bracketing argument does have some merit to it. I think GPP w/out sprinting can improve someone's sprint times. But they will never approach elite times. And I think a person will have better GPP and better sprint times by regularly incorporating them into the workouts. I think that's the whole topic of this discussion, whether or not sprints should be included in CrossFit. Since we're in agreement that the answer is "yes", the next important question is: how?

Tyler
I think the problem isn't "does this bracketing idea work or not?", which could be true or not. I think the larger problem is doing the runs in the context of a larger metcon or not. As has been said, the 400s run in Helen are quite slow even for elite performers. Maybe if the 400s were run by themselves with full recovery, like the heavy lifting, the bracketing idea might work. But there's no way that doing slow "sprints" in a fatigued state in between doing other stuff will have significant carryover to sprinting speed. So I'd rather see 400s with full recovery than 100s mixed into a larger metcon for the purpose of improving speed. I think the 10x100m WOD would be a big step in this direction. I think that even distances below 100m would be helpful. Something like "start on a line, run 5 yards, tap ground, run back, tap, run to 10, tap, back, etc out to 20 yards"x10 with full recovery, which would work not only acceleration but also agility.
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Old 01-01-2010, 01:56 PM   #66
Nathan Kulas
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

The CFE site has a similar WOD that I have seen.. every x amount of time an additional 5 meters is added to a run until you can no longer accomplish the distance in the specified time.

I think for full sprint training, just like you take days for the 5K or days for 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 on lifts - you can have days dedicated to all out sprints with "enough rest for recovery" between reps. Alternatively, specify the distance between 2-3 stations... e.g.

Set up an equilateral triangle with thrusters, wall balls and dead lifts - have a 40m base on the triangle. For time, do 21, 15, 9 of each station, sprinting to the next.

Or some other triangle with 30m, 40m and 50m sides, etc. This would help speed development better than 400s. If space is limited, decrease the distance and increase intensity - scalability.
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:33 PM   #67
Tyler Hass
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Katherine,
I agree that elite level GPP does not equate to elite level performance in any specialty. That's pretty well established. But my point was that a person training for GPP will sprint faster if they train sprints, as opposed to bracketing them. And sprinting is one of the most vital and primitive movements of the human body. I think it's importance is greater than other movements that are regularly trained in CF WOD's, such as rowing.


One of the templates that I have played around with is what I call "SprintCon".

5 Rounds

In one minute, perform 20 pushups, then sprint as far as possible.

Rest 1 Minute

Your score is the total distance run.

It's tough workout. Typically you have about 20-40 seconds of time to sprint. But what can be tough, is that you don't know how much time is left, so you keep pushing until the minute ends.

Tyler
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #68
Nathan Kulas
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

I'd be doing a lot of running - as my push-ups don't take long. I completed 95 in my last PT test - they give me 2 minutes, but I only ever use 1. I always feel like I'm cheating when push-ups come up in the WOD.. so easy.

I'll have to try it out.. I like it. Thanks for the idea.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:51 PM   #69
David Knutzen
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Hass View Post
One of the templates that I have played around with is what I call "SprintCon".

5 Rounds

In one minute, perform 20 pushups, then sprint as far as possible.

Rest 1 Minute
I'm definitely doing this in my IBA once I'm done with this strength cycle. Nathan, I'm just like you with push-ups (except in the USAF they only give us 1 minute, but I seldom need more than 35s), so its gonna be a whole buncha sprinting.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:10 PM   #70
Tyler Hass
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Re: Mainsite "True" Sprints

For you guys, adding more pushups is fine. It's still an experimental template that I've been playing around with. It works well with groups, though. You can tweak the number of pushups from one person to the next to handicap the field. It turns it into a fun race for everyone.
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