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Old 09-13-2007, 05:19 AM   #101
Lance Boggs
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

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Originally Posted by John Thompson View Post
When I find a knife defense that dosen't get me killed I will train in it. Otherwise it's counter with a weapon, any weapon, a lamp even, or even better the shoe leather express.

I probably should mention I was stabbed in a fight a few years ago. I stood there and took on the knife just like I was trained to do.
Of course its ideal to have a weapon to deal with another weapon, but I'm curious how much lamp training you have under your belt!

It sounds like you were unable to do a technique on the street against a knife and for that reason do not trust the training you received. Now you dont' trust what you have learned, and are carrying your bias to the net.

I often find dojos have good techniques, but don't always have teachers who are able to translate the techniques properly for use on the street. This is often not a failing of the art, or the techniques just a failing of instructors who have been fortunate enough to have never been in a real life encounter.

Let us keep in mind that often times techniques from very old schools were never designed to reflect exactly how to move or react. Often times they teach a principle, feeling or idea that when trained will provide you with a tool to use in a real encounter.

Often when I see people try to prove that you can't take a knife from someone the knife guy just sits back like a counter puncher, never really commiting to anything and slicing you up as you come in. I fail to see how this is supposed to represent someone attacking you. How often does a robber pull a knife, then jump out of range and hop around waiting for you to come to them?
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:05 AM   #102
Will Blankenship
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

In a knife fight you're probably getting cut unless you're fighting an idiot. Which... as far as knife fighting goes, I guess probably 95% of the population would fall under the idiot category. You can pull out any secret underground ninja technique you want... if you're fighting a person that knows how to use a knife... you're getting cut. Even a guy that's only had the minimal amount of training with sticks or a knife could potentially slice your *** up.

Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Larry Hartsell (RIP)... will all tell you... you're getting cut. You do train to sustain the least amount of damage possible while you're trying to disarm your opponent. Hell, you MIGHT even get away without a scratch. Most of the time you won't.

Somebody pulls knife on me... and I'm close enough to my XD45, I'll give you guys some feedback on if it will actually blow a head off.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:16 AM   #103
Barry Cooper
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

I'm probably creating more trouble than I've helping with, so I'll just leave off, but I can't resist one last comment or two.

The old-time bare knuckles boxers, from what I've been told, had a saying: Everybody has a plan until they get hit. This is likely true, but I don't think you can extrapolate from that that they didn't think having a plan was worthwhile. It is a truly rare military operation that goes off precisely to plan, but the plan is the template from which you deviate as the situation requires. Obviously, good plans are better than bad plans, and in some cases this is what makes the difference.

As I've said before, the art of Barry Kwon Do is kicking them in the shin (or elsewhere), and running as fast as I can. Actually, that is the explicit form of it. The implicit form of it is avoiding that situation to begin with. Police officers obviously don't have that option, but from what I can tell their training largely works, since most casualties seem to come from gunshots.

My apologies for muddying the waters. I call these theological discussions, since over time they come to resemble the debates about how many angels fit on the head of a pin (the answer, obviously, depends on the size of the pin, normally it's 42).

YMMV.
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:31 PM   #104
John Thompson
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

Blankenship and Cooper: Word.

The reason why it seems most cops get shot as opposed to stabbed is simply because cops have a greater chance of dying from a gunshot wound, you don't hear nearly enough about all the cops who get stabbed and survive, and also because in America when you want to kill a cop the gun is the weapon of choice. Typical police training in knife defense is either non existant altogether, was taught to them once years earlier, or is all those great techniques that I have already stated are worthless.

When confronted by a knife the police officers number one response is to create distance and deploy a firearm. Absent of that the cop needs to still create whatever distance nessessary even if means running around a kitchen table until he has enough time to pick up a kitchen chair to use as a weapon. Using his hands should be the absolute last resort. Doing traps and counters and all that is like hitting the lottery if you can prevail. The first thing a legit trainer will tell you is this defense is an absolute last ditch option and the reality of why that is.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:36 AM   #105
Lance Boggs
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

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Originally Posted by John Thompson View Post
Blankenship and Cooper: Word.

The reason why it seems most cops get shot as opposed to stabbed is simply because cops have a greater chance of dying from a gunshot wound, you don't hear nearly enough about all the cops who get stabbed and survive, and also because in America when you want to kill a cop the gun is the weapon of choice. Typical police training in knife defense is either non existant altogether, was taught to them once years earlier, or is all those great techniques that I have already stated are worthless.

When confronted by a knife the police officers number one response is to create distance and deploy a firearm. Absent of that the cop needs to still create whatever distance nessessary even if means running around a kitchen table until he has enough time to pick up a kitchen chair to use as a weapon. Using his hands should be the absolute last resort. Doing traps and counters and all that is like hitting the lottery if you can prevail. The first thing a legit trainer will tell you is this defense is an absolute last ditch option and the reality of why that is.

Police officers are a very poor choice for this conversation as their training is short and usually crappy. Most of the cops I have met and trained with that were good got so by training outside of the police training (my best man has been a cop for 12 years and he shows me the crap they train him in for empty hand, its just pathetic).

A couple of days of empty handed techniques followed by sitting in a car for 12 hours a day does not lead to having much of a chance of doing anything against an attacker. Just because a cop can't deal empty handed with a guy who has a knife does not illustrate that those techniques are invalid or not worth training. Honestly I feel bad for the average cop as they really are not given enough training to deal with the scuz bags that they will be running into on a daily basis.

The continuing trend in this thread of "I cant' do it, so it must not work," is just silly. I will repeat my opinion that if you don't train properly in knife defense you will lower your chances of dealing with an attack. Ones martial training should cover the entire realm of combat from hand to hand to firearms (both firing them tactically and dealing with them.) It doesn't hurt if you break out of the dojo and train around cars, trees, in tight environments, with different lighting, in different clothing, etc. None of this will guarantee that you will walk away unscathed from an encounter, but the whole point of training is to improve your chances to get your rear back home safely, there are no guarantees in life.
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:28 AM   #106
Brandon Oto
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

There are no instructors or operators with any experience who believe that they have a "reliable" system of defeating a committed attacker wielding a knife using empty hands.
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:57 AM   #107
Lance Boggs
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
There are no instructors or operators with any experience who believe that they have a "reliable" system of defeating a committed attacker wielding a knife using empty hands.
Comments like these just roast my rump as you have zero ability to back this statement up. Have you talked to EVERY instructor or operator with any experience? Since that is impossible, how many have you talked to form that opinion? What do you qualify as "experience?"

Ego is the first thing to kill and it is a blade that cuts two ways. The first is that peoples ego gets them into trouble because they think they are better than they are, the second is where people get into their minds that only their way will work. Both paths lead down the road to ruin. If we are not open to training in various styles, for various scenarios, and taking in a wide range of opinions then we are not martial artists. I mean seriously, if you already have everything all figured out why bother to train anymore?

Training should be a never ending process of learning, refinement and working on our weak points. If you don't feel comfortable with your knife defenses, then go to the best knife fighters you can find and learn how to use a knife and how they suggest dealing with it unarmed. Train with people who have good unarmed vs armed techniques keeping what you feel works best for you and refining it down. The drill, drill, drill and drill some more. Just giving up and saying "it won't work, why bother" is pointless and certainly does not help one who is put in that horrid situation.

Given better tactical options it would be stupid to attempt to go against a knife wielding opponent bare handed. Not training to deal empty handed with a knife wielding attacker is a good way to ensure that you are toast if you end up in that situation.

Sometimes you train for the absolute worse case situation. Training for the "ideal" situation all the time really is not combat, and is the true fantasy here.

Personally I'm down with the general idea that if you end up against a guy with a knife and you are unarmed that getting cut is very likely. Training can be the difference between stitches and the morgue however. IMO this whole thing works better if you learn to use a knife first, then move on to learning defenses against it.

Another aspect of training unarmed against weapons is that it increases the stress level of the training, weapons typically are faster than a punch or kick, and it really works on your distance and timing. Many of the goofy things I see in dojos using knives/swords against unarmed opponents are not strictly defenses against those weapons, but are instead drills to work on distance, timing, closing, etc. I've used shinai many times for ducking, jumping and evasion drills and it certainly was not something that would represent how I would encourage someone to deal with a guy with a sword!
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:20 AM   #108
Will Blankenship
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

"John Thompson - When confronted by a knife the police officers number one response is to create distance and deploy a firearm."

This is very true. Two of my best friends are police officers. One just graduated from the academy, the other is a seargent. I was talking to the seargent last night. He said "If a person pulls a weapon of any kind on me, that means they're trying to take my life... and you know what, I'm going home. That mother f****r is dead".
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:12 AM   #109
Brandon Oto
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

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Originally Posted by Lance Boggs View Post
Comments like these just roast my rump as you have zero ability to back this statement up. Have you talked to EVERY instructor or operator with any experience? Since that is impossible, how many have you talked to form that opinion? What do you qualify as "experience?"
I was, of course, being intentionally hyperbolic. But I was also making the point that if someone comes to me offering a surefire way to "win a knife fight" or the like, I am quite willing to remove them from the category of "experienced."

The sampling of that data pool is mostly the large grab-bag of been-here been-there folks over at the Animal List (here ... okay, or a little more seriously, http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/animallist.html). Friends and family all.

Quote:
Training should be a never ending process of learning, refinement and working on our weak points. If you don't feel comfortable with your knife defenses, then go to the best knife fighters you can find and learn how to use a knife and how they suggest dealing with it unarmed. Train with people who have good unarmed vs armed techniques keeping what you feel works best for you and refining it down. The drill, drill, drill and drill some more. Just giving up and saying "it won't work, why bother" is pointless and certainly does not help one who is put in that horrid situation.
My point was not that you should curl up and die when confronted by a knife. My point WAS more along the lines of:

1. If you're in a SELF DEFENSE context -- meaning, just trying to survive -- you've already screwed up in a huge way if you're in this dueling scenario where you have nowhere to run and no options other than striking a kung fu stance. (Someone with a duty to act has a different set of responsibilities, but different cards to play as well; it's a similar story.)

2. If it does come to it, yes, you should do your best, and yes, you should train for it if your particular set of risks and priorities advises, but you should not expect to pull out xyz move and be sure of walking away. The situation is already so stacked that there is no good answer; this is what I meant by "reliable."

3. Maybe most of all, what I meant was that there are a lot of people with a lot to say about facing a knife, and while it's not all valueless, it is madness to file it under the same thought processes as your tournament boxing technique.

Quote:
Sometimes you train for the absolute worse case situation. Training for the "ideal" situation all the time really is not combat, and is the true fantasy here.
I agree. But I would add that training for the least-ideal situation often gets rather too much time on your schedule, and as a result can lead to your thinking that it's really not so bad after all.

Aside from all this, I have only a clarification and an analogy. To clarify: I'm talking strictly about self defense, not martial arts. In the context of the latter, addressing a blade in all respects can have its own interest, and need not fall under this lens.

Finally, an analogy in the form of a koan:

Q. What do you do when you are cornered in an alley by 27 ninjas wielding Uzis?

A. You die.

[Courtesy of the A-List]
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:23 PM   #110
Lance Boggs
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Re: Will Crav Maga ever be in the UFC or Pride?

1. "If you're in a SELF DEFENSE context -- meaning, just trying to survive -- you've already screwed up in a huge way if you're in this dueling scenario where you have nowhere to run and no options other than striking a kung fu stance. (Someone with a duty to act has a different set of responsibilities, but different cards to play as well; it's a similar story.)"

==> Stairwells, alleys, bathrooms, offices... there are tons of places you might be trapped with no good way out, unarmed, with no ability to readily evade or escape. Also I don't know any kung fu stances, can you show me some (joke on that part)

You must also think that you might have to defend your partner/child/parent/friend in a situation which as good as prevents you from running as well. Leaving grandma to get stabbed will get you right off of the Xmas card list, not to mention out of the will!

2. "If it does come to it, yes, you should do your best, and yes, you should train for it if your particular set of risks and priorities advises, but you should not expect to pull out xyz move and be sure of walking away. The situation is already so stacked that there is no good answer; this is what I meant by "reliable.""

==> In reading back through the posts in this thread regarding this only those who think unarmed vs. a blade has zero chance of working are talking about some stiff, rigid martial arts kata that is expected to work exactly how is practiced in class. I mentioned specifically distance, timing, improvised weapons in my posts. Other people have spoken in general terms of knife defense. Perhaps the critics should deal with what people are saying, as you guys are making comments about things we are not talking about.

I don't know many people who think that the techniques that they practice in class have any chance of working the same way on the street. In my experience they are more designed to learn principles that can be applied in a combative situation.

3. "Maybe most of all, what I meant was that there are a lot of people with a lot to say about facing a knife, and while it's not all valueless, it is madness to file it under the same thought processes as your tournament boxing technique."

==> Agreed, but again this is not something any of the advocates of training to defend against a knife are advocating. The critics are the only one talking about the this type of training...

"I agree. But I would add that training for the least-ideal situation often gets rather too much time on your schedule, and as a result can lead to your thinking that it's really not so bad after all."

==> Or people who are studying self defense should really think more about the situations that are harder to walk away from, such as an armed attacker. You have allot more options typically when both people are unarmed, or even better when you are armed against an attacker who is not. In addition training to deal with the worse will refine your awareness to think that the guy might have a weapon on him (even if you cant' see it) and be aware of that during a self defense encounter. It also adds to the stress factor of training that will help you (in some schools of thought) to act in situations where you might normally freeze up.

"Finally, an analogy in the form of a koan:

Q. What do you do when you are cornered in an alley by 27 ninjas wielding Uzis?

A. You die."

==> 100% of the time? Do you at least try to escape, negotiate with them, offer to join them, bribe them, ask to be taken to their leader, demand an honorable fight one on one with their senior ninja? Your not dead until you are dead, or until you give up and stop trying...

In closing, as this is getting repetitive, I will offer a few of my own:

"You fight like you train..."
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