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Old 07-28-2006, 11:50 PM   #11
Ron Murphy
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the vegan DRs are getting good results dealing with various diseases. you have been convinced that animal products are a must,I say there not.If you came down with a disease that the vegan DRs say a vegan diet would help . What would you do, take the medication and live with it?
if I may quote robb wolf on his profile page.
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.� Charles Darwin
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:55 AM   #12
Scott Kustes
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Ron, when I see a study proving a Vegan diet is superior to a well-structured meat based diet, I'll believe it. Like Robb said, remove all of the processed carbs from the diet and you will improve glucose control, be it by replacing it with meat or lower GI, higher fiber fruits and veggies. The question isn't superiority to the Food Guide Pyramid (which is pretty much what the ADA mimics), but superiority to a diet consisting of "meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch, and no sugar."
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Old 07-29-2006, 06:32 AM   #13
Craig Van De Walker
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"WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- People who ate a low-fat vegan diet, cutting out all meat and dairy, lowered their blood sugar more and lost more weight than people on a standard American Diabetes Association diet, researchers said this week."

I won't argue with the results. The ADA diet is only marginally better than the diet most obese Americans follow! It does not work well, especially for diabetics. It has nothing to do with meat or no meat. I would be willing to bet that adding lean meat to the diet and cutting out ALL SUGAR and PROCESSED carbs would give much better results, but a less impressive headline.

Instead of the magic of "vegan" it might say

Balanced diet cutting out all sugar and procesed carbs reverses diabetes symptoms

"After 22 weeks on the diet, 43 percent of those on the vegan diet and 26 percent of those on the standard diet were either able to stop taking some of their drugs such as insulin or glucose-control medications, or lowered the doses."

Not even half of the people on the vegan diet were able to stop or reduce med doses.

I am not saying you have to eat meat. I am just arguing that the improvement these people saw had little or nothing to do with no meat. I will point out several vegan items. Bagels, sugar, cookies, cakes(yes cake can be made without animal products), soda pop, taffy, graham crackers and candy bars. I do not think diabetics tend to overeat meat (this is purely annecdotal observation on my part not scientific study). What I have observed is that they overeat high starch/procesed foods, which are in fact vegan.

(Message edited by vcraig on July 29, 2006)
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Old 07-29-2006, 04:59 PM   #14
Ben Kaminski
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I think that most of us here are open to new information. However, we are also extremely skeptical. No offense, but your posts sometimes come across to me as abrasive, which does not help your argument.

The vegan diet has been debated before, perhaps you would do well to search for those debates on this board and review some of the previous discussions. The reason some of us are not receptive to a new study promoting veganism might be because we have heard and discussed similar things before.

(Message edited by ssf on July 29, 2006)
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:27 AM   #15
Bob Long
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:50 AM   #16
Robert Wolf
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That's awesome!

One of my clients is in the process of suing (possibly in class action) one of the prominent vegan docs (if you fish around the P-menu site you can figure out which doc). This doc has been repremaned several times by the AMA for using questionable therapeutic practices such as administering thyroid medications to individuals with NO thyroid problem. Reason? It makes the vegan diet work like a charm for shedding fat. Unfortuantely for my client she also has stage 2 cardiomyopathy and elevated thyroid severely exacerbates this process. Bad Doc.

I appreciate your (and actually all vegetarians) convictions on this matter but what this boils down to is that a smart vegan diet is better than the junk food diet most people eat. That is easy to establish. You have your work cut out for you hawever when it comes to proving the vegan diet superior to an ancestral paleo diet. The fact there are veg-docs treating people with some measure of success means nothing other than they are improving a preexisting condition. D'adamo advocates the blood type diet which is balderdash and has a slew of followers. At the core he recomends removal of processedd foods. Again, tough to argue with that. Keep trying however, someone might listen eventually!
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:19 PM   #17
Robert Alan Moon
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This is a funny subject to me because of years of working with my diabetes. I have been type I for 3 decades. I can honestly say that cutting meat from my diet actually had adverse affects on my health. I now eat no sugar and no processed carbs for at least 6 days straight and usually for weeks on end. The big difference for me is mental. If I restrict myself completely of foods that I enjoy the result is a binge at some point that is very bad.
One thing I would like to point out is that the ADA diet is terrible. The AMA and the ADA promote eating all sorts of foods that do not help a person control their glucose and then try to debate by saying that the portion control the patient shows is the issue. Balderdash! Who wants to eat 2 TBsp of Ice cream? Not me!
The thing that gets me is that to publish positive results to a test, the only prerequisite is that the test subjects must exhibit results that are more positive than that of another group. It's like most drugs. The only thing a drug has to do is be tested and show results that are above the same test group taking placebos! So if the group taking the new drug feels some inherrent wish to improve their diets for the 5 days the drug is being tested who says that the diet didn't help more than the drug did? The controls for these tests are so subjective.
Hey all I know is I like meat. When I eat meat, I don't get crazy and want to binge on processed crap. My diet right now consists of meat, veggies, nuts, seeds and a very, very small amount of occasional fruits. I have not stopped taking insulin, but I have lowered my intake. That's got to be worth something eh?

Train Hard,
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:16 PM   #18
Ron Murphy
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hi robert
thanks for your comments, I hunted for the bad doctor you mention, i couldn't find him, how about some more clues. I would like to get more info. It sounds like he deserves to get sued.

I think D'adamo diet is nonsense too

I will admitt that vegetarian and vegan diets may be better than the standard american diet but over all than can be very poor. I don't like to use the word vegan, I think plant based diet is better. I think the plant based diet that is very low in animal products would get better results than the vegan study did. Dr fuhrman, a MD has many of is patients completely off their thyroid medication,[I posted a link above to some of his results] much better results than the vegan study did.

Now that I have your attention could you please comment on the paleo diet by cordain. I have been to your web site and from my reading you have him in high regard and you have work closely with him, Am I correct in stating this?
Of all the diets talked about on this board, I think his is by far the best.
What do you think about his stance on cholesterol and saturated fat. repeating myself, he says hunters -gathers saturated fat content in their diets was very low, cholestrol level around 130. He is against dairy, cheese ,butter,And very little oil, coffee, alcohol. he is not against eating fruit and is not worried about the GI in fruit. He advocates lots of raw foods nuts and seeds. Can you see why I like him? This is the way I eat except for the meat eating, I eat nuts seeds and some cooked beans for protien.
you are very well respected on this board,and live in the city of chico,which I like very much, your comments please or point me to a paper you have written thanks
sorry to steal this thread
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:41 PM   #19
Yael Grauer
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I will have to dig up the research I found on this, but I read that good ways of avoiding diabetes (other than the obvious low sugar and low carbs) include eating fermented foods, getting plenty of vitamin A+D (cod liver oil, anyone?) and also getting plenty of trace minerals.
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:56 PM   #20
Mike Minium
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Look here for the answer to your mystery doctor:


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