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Old 04-07-2011, 08:57 AM   #31
adam adkins
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Nalin Prabhu View Post
there would be somebody arguing it wasn't right.
Hard to argue someone didn't do a ground to overheard anyhow right.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:01 AM   #32
Nalin Prabhu
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
Hard to argue someone didn't do a ground to overheard anyhow right.
Not the movement.. the description.

And even the 'overhead' position- did you see the mainsite pic of the acceptable vs. unacceptable OH position (from tuesday i think)- Tell me every judge at every affiliate can call the difference between the 2?
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:07 AM   #33
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
First, cleaning 75kg has virtually nothing to do with strength. Doing it continuously for 5 minutes is muscle endurance but don't confuse this as separating the " strong people"


fit.
Obviously a 75kg clean and jerk doesn't demonstrate much strength, but all other factors being equal or reasonably close (conditioning, metcon capacity) the guy with a 125kg C&J is going to smoke the guy with a 100kg C&J on this one. I don't care how good my conditioning is, I'm not going to beat a Rob Orlando on this one. That's what I meant about separating out the stronger people.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:27 AM   #34
adam adkins
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Nalin Prabhu View Post
Not the movement.. the description.

And even the 'overhead' position- did you see the mainsite pic of the acceptable vs. unacceptable OH position (from tuesday i think)- Tell me every judge at every affiliate can call the difference between the 2?
Ya and that is the point I am trying to make. Why not remove as much judgment from it as possible?

Currently the judge has to consider the receiving point of the catch to and the depth of the squat. If the receiving point is to high the judge has to tell the participant to do a front squat and then actually judge the front squat.

Then the judge has to judge the jerk - which isn't a jerk so it has its own vaguely defined set to terms. And finally the judge has to determine if the OH position is correct.

I am just saying why not eliminate all but the OH position. Have the participant get there any way he or she wants.

Think of it in terms of the Stongman. Can you imagine a situation in which a contestant grabs a 100lb keg and tosses it over a 12ft bar and the judge says, "Oh, I am sorry that one doesn't count because you squat on that throw didn't break parallel." It is ridiculous. The idea is to do the work anyway that you can. If you do more work you are by definition more fit for that task.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:15 AM   #35
Geoff Archibald
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
You are missing the point. I am not getting "hung up on semantics" and am saying that the true competition is to test the result with little concern for the means - minor safety concerns excepted.

As I said, some will have to "squat clean" the weight. Some will do a westside style stiff-leg clean. Both are fine. Some will have to jerk it, some will push press it and others will do some combination. All is fine.

If person A can get the weight overhead 50 times and person B 40 times, Person A is more fit for the task no matter the means.

The semantics argument I presented was that I couldn't understand why crossfit requires strict compliance to a move that is broadly defined -the clean - and loose compliance with a term that is specifically defined - the jerk. To me, the better result is strict compliance only with the result- the bar being overhead. Anything else only adds confusing and arbitrary judgment to the ultimate goal of find "the most fit."
So your only real beef is with the front squat? How does requiring a front squat in the movement not test fitness? What if they had called it a clean + thruster with the option of any method from shoulder to overhead? Would that make you happier? I don't really see much confusion coming out of this WOD. It's relatively straightforward.

They just happened to choose terms to describe the workout that would apply to the majority of the participants. My max clean and jerk is 185#. Every one of my reps will be a full depth clean and a split jerk. For some it will be a new PR to get one rep. The fast guys are probably doing pretty loose clean+thrusters like in the demo video with Bergeron and Sherwood.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:42 AM   #36
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
Flexibility, balance and coordination. Squatting brings out the goat in a lot of otherwise strong peoples' game. Pressing out gives the posterior chain a break, which is already working double duty (but it's debatable, sure).
Flexibility, balance, and coordination are important in a proper jerk, too.

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Old 04-07-2011, 11:48 AM   #37
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Nalin Prabhu View Post
And even the 'overhead' position- did you see the mainsite pic of the acceptable vs. unacceptable OH position (from tuesday i think)- Tell me every judge at every affiliate can call the difference between the 2?
Yeah, especially when the athlete is trying to do 5-10+ reps per minute.

In weightlifting, the rule is that the lifter has to be motionless with their feet in a line parallel to the bar. Nothing about the bar being over the heels. And an oly judge has the luxury of making the lifter stand there until they decide if it's a good lift.

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Old 04-07-2011, 11:48 AM   #38
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Flexibility, balance, and coordination are important in a proper jerk, too.

Katherine
Are we really going to argue over the different demands in those areas of a squat versus a jerk?
The want a squat clean because squatting is important and hasn't been in any of the workouts yet. Work capacity is about more than moving the barbell, and it's still only one of the four standards of fitness. Yes, within these standards they can come up with rationales for almost anything. Everyone could learn to deal with it, but I'm not optimistic .
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:59 AM   #39
Nalin Prabhu
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk




It is what it is.. I don't think I could do better than the HQ folks coming up with 6 workouts, so I'm going to stop trying to second guess and criticize..even though that is just so much fun
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:14 PM   #40
Charles Applin
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
Ya and that is the point I am trying to make. Why not remove as much judgment from it as possible?

Currently the judge has to consider the receiving point of the catch to and the depth of the squat. If the receiving point is to high the judge has to tell the participant to do a front squat and then actually judge the front squat.

Then the judge has to judge the jerk - which isn't a jerk so it has its own vaguely defined set to terms. And finally the judge has to determine if the OH position is correct.

I am just saying why not eliminate all but the OH position. Have the participant get there any way he or she wants.

Think of it in terms of the Stongman. Can you imagine a situation in which a contestant grabs a 100lb keg and tosses it over a 12ft bar and the judge says, "Oh, I am sorry that one doesn't count because you squat on that throw didn't break parallel." It is ridiculous. The idea is to do the work anyway that you can. If you do more work you are by definition more fit for that task.
FWIW, I'm in complete agreement here. If anything has been demonstrated in last weeks WOD, it is that the rules need to be AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. Once we get the 1000 men/women to regionals where well trained judges will be, then more complex requirements can be dictated.

Honestly, the rules could have been: Ground to shoulders = 1 rep, shoulders to overhead = 1 rep in addition to minor rules concerning bouncing, arm/head/feet positions and not using squat stands. I'm pretty sure the scores would have been similar to what we're getting now, minus as those BS negative scores because the hip crease is questionably too high.

BTW, this is not just about this weeks WOD. I think this concept should be carried on all future endeavors with online competitions. As I've said before, I'm hoping CFHQ tries something similar in 6 months without all the hiccups.
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